Can white women be allies to BME women?

And yes, in the 60s and 70s and even 80s black communities did demand that the authorities in their cities get tough on crime in their neighbourhoods. They say police who stayed away, would not answer calls, and said, this is racist, we need police services here, we need liveable communities. Also at this time in the Us there as a really significant movement of black leaders into positions of power in many cities - city councils, mayors, into the police and police chiefs. A lot of people who were civil rights activists thought this was going to result in major changes in the ways cities were run and the disadvantages that dogged many black communities and neighbourhoods would begin to disappear.

If you simply disbelieve history that doesn't suit your narrative, yeah, I'm not so interested in talking to you about how to achieve a more just and equal society, what would be the point. You know what you want to know, and apparently you even know how to fix it all.

It’s almost as though we have concocted an environment where some element of social status is conferred by identifying with an oppressed group, thus explaining both the streadfast refusal to acknowledge being part of an “oppressor” group, a desire to point out how even more oppressed sunsets of groups might be, and the inevitable internecine squabbles that this jockeying for position cause.

It’s easier if one takes the view everything that derives from critical theory is utter bunk, the world is a lot more sensible that way.

[quote BraveGoldie]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras first of all, I haven't told women to do anything. I have expressed that the actual doing anything is optional, and fully dependent on what people are able to do, and I have listed a range of possibilities as examples of things people might be able to do - at no point saying anybody has to do anything. I also at no point suggested these things needed to ONLY be for black women.

Ask yourself why you are motivated to make up crap and misquote people to try to make what they are saying sound unreasonable?? That is why it is an 'ah but' - you don't want to do what seems blindingly simple and obvious - acknowledge that black women often have it damned hard and no it's not ok that they suffer both sexism and racism, that it's a legitimate concern that you care about, and it's good if and when any of us can help in some way'. Instead you have to twist yourself in knots (and twist my words while doing it) to find an 'ah but'....

Good luck but it doesn't wash here. [/quote]
So no one is being told to do anything, and no one is telling women to look to see how they can specifically help black women by, for example, mentoring them? But that has been suggested on this thread so how I'm twisting things I don't know. The thread is about white women and whether they can be allies to BAME women, yet the AME women have been left out of the discussion as it's focussed on black women and BLM.

I don't doubt that black women suffer from both racism and sexism. I'm quite sure AME women also suffer from racism and sexism too and I'm sure that disabled women suffer from ableism and sexism. I'm just wondering why it's becoming acceptable to discriminate against other sections of society.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras first of all, I haven't told women to do anything. I have expressed that the actual doing anything is optional, and fully dependent on what people are able to do, and I have listed a range of possibilities as examples of things people might be able to do - at no point saying anybody has to do anything. I also at no point suggested these things needed to ONLY be for black women.

Ask yourself why you are motivated to make up crap and misquote people to try to make what they are saying sound unreasonable?? That is why it is an 'ah but' - you don't want to do what seems blindingly simple and obvious - acknowledge that black women often have it damned hard and no it's not ok that they suffer both sexism and racism, that it's a legitimate concern that you care about, and it's good if and when any of us can help in some way'. Instead you have to twist yourself in knots (and twist my words while doing it) to find an 'ah but'....

Good luck but it doesn't wash here.

Goosefoot with your world view, 1. how do you explain that the documented crimes committed by Wall Street big shots, like JP Morgan and others consistently only ever result in fines (which pale in comparison to the fraudulently achieved gains) but never in locked up bankers? The laws to lock them up are in the books. And since Occupy Wallstreet, pretty much everyone has heard this demand. So why do they always walk, without even an indictment? 2. Do you honestly believe the Black community asked for the locking up of black men for Years and decades for the (possibly repeated) offence Of marijuana possession?

No offence, but It is no wonder you are clueless about how to ‚solve the problem‘. You can‘t even identify the actual problem when it stares right into your face.

BraveGoldie

How is it an " ah, but"? You are telling women to mentor black women in business, that is surely a case of ignoring other women isn't it? Unless that woman has the capacity to mentor several women then you are telling white women to favour black women over everyone else?

Your comparison with rape Vs other assaults is a false analogy because it's easy to speak out against several things at the same time. If you have finite resources then you are telling women to concentrate resources on only one group. Can you explain how that isn't racist to women of other ethnicities?

It did have outcomes that people now see as negative. Which is important and significant, and something to think about in light of calls to defund the police.

But just looking at incarceration rates and saying, this is bad and the cause is racism - it's not really that helpful. It makes a difference whether the mechanism for that is directly racist attitudes in the police, or correlations between race and poverty, or something else. It makes a difference if violent offences are committed at a higher rate by black men, looking to the police as a cause of that is not going to be in any way effective.

In my community there was an inquiry in the last few years into the question of police checks being more likely to be of members of the black community. (Basically randomly pulling people over.) Which was true, but the real correlation was neighbourhood, you wee more likely to be checked in a high crime area. I heard an interview with one community member, a black man and a social worker, who said he thought police checks were useful, but in order to avoid being racist they should do them at the same rate in other neighbourhoods with different demographic profiles.

Well, maybe, but then they are spending their funding and personnel on communities without much crime and presumably removing them from communities that are high crime, and where the residents regularly complain of lack of resources to deal with it.

All of this, consciously or unconsciously, seems to be very carefully avoiding the real questions which are why poverty has been persistent in the black community, which has been consistently difficult to solve, or in some cases even get a clear sense of the reasons for its persistence. It doesn't have easy solutions or slogans to attach to it, and it's an often frustrating and long-term effort.

I've felt increasingly like that work is being undermined, and talking about the difficult problems is less and less acceptable. So it is kind of a piss-off when people start saying "why won't you talk about this stuff?"

Goosefoot I very much doubt that the Black Community asked for generations of Black young men to be locked away for nonviolent offences. The very idea that some poor black community demanded something - anything - and politics followed suit is laughable. On that note: Does Flynt have clean water yet?

As far as systemic or institutional racism in America - I guess it really depends on what that is supposed to be.

To me, racism is fundamentally race essentialism. So institutional racism would be instances where the idea of race is embedded into how institutions of systems work.

I think there's been a lot of effort, even in the US, to get negative instances of race essentialism out of institutions. But you do still see the effects of differences in demographic outcomes racially, which isn't a simple problem to solve no matter how to try to do it.

My problem with a lot of identity politics initiatives is they seem to take the same race essentialism and embed it back into institutions, albeit supposedly in a benign and helpful way.

That rather peculiar article upthread by Ali's son did not make me think he was especially politically insightful, but I think it was interesting that he felt the need to emphasis the dreaded ALM. I think people have tended to see it as a statement meant to stand against BLM, but at least for people like him I don't think that's true, I think the idea is that you cannot divide people off into groups and proclaim the worth of each group, rather our worth is rooted in recognition of our common humanity.

No of course I am not saying you are not allowed to care about or do anything to help other struggling people. Don't be ridiculous. Nobody is saying that! It's like explaining to a man you want him to stand up and say rape is not ok, and he responds 'you're saying I can't condemn other forms of violence against women?Isn't that unfair to women who get beaten?' Really!

The same as with differences that don't seem to make a lot of sense about sentences for different drugs. Crack cocaine gets a longer sentence, but that came out of efforts to reduce crime in black neighbourhoods, where crack was more common. This was in response to demands from the people in those neighbourhoods that police weren't doing enough.

Similarly with police killings - what connects them most is poverty, blacks are only somewhat over-represented and police killings of blacks have been going down while those of whites have been going up.

Should this allyship only be applied to black women? Why not also to Asian women or women from all other ethnic minorities? Are they not going to suffer even more if people only focus on black women? Is that not racist towards women of other ethnic minorities?

What about disabled women? Should they not be also deserving of hand ups too?

There are so many people at the bottom, how do you choose who to help?

Because while it seems obvious, it really isn't to many people.

I think the first thing we can do as allies is to really listen and say 'yes there is a problem.' And 'No I am not ok with it' without sidetracking into numerous other side alleys and saying 'ahh but what about....' That is what your kind of reply (quoted) achieves.

Maybe the second thing is to call out and be heard if you hear people denying there is a problem or being racist

Maybe the third thing is to actively do what we can. That may be very little. It may be as simple as signing a petition, rather than thinking 'not my fight'. It may be giving some money. It may be as well as looking at the representation of women, asking your company why none of its new hires or guest speakers etc are black, and encouraging them to do better next time. Perhaps it is consciously choosing a black woman to mentor, because that way you are contributing to offset two ways in which someone may be disadvantaged, rather than just one... it may be bigger things if you have the energy and capacity.

I think if we get the first two we are well on our way to being decent allies. They sound simple, but they are not. They take a lot of self reflection and personal courage in a lot of individual moments. I don't always get them right. I am trying to do better. For example, in the past I would see racist comments (or comments denying racism) on Mumsnet and would just think 'what an idiot' and move on. But I have come to realize that people then don't get that it's not ok or welcome - they definitely don't know that I don't think it's ok. I am leaving it to others - including black women who are tired of always having to stand out on their own and fight the fight and isolate themselves. I have realized that it makes a difference whether I am heard or not. Not because I am special in anyway, but because the more people who are heard, the more these things change..... I hope.

I don't think there is one right answer, and I definitely have no access to it or special right to explain it..... but this is the understanding I have reached about how to be an ally and it is what I am holding myself accountable to.

I can't count the number of times I have read threads started by black women saying they feel they have encountered some form of racism and they have been told by multiple posters that it's not about race.
This is true. I don't think it's AS true on the feminism board actually, but across MN (and probably other forums idk) it's true.
There's a shocking amount of defensiveness when someone posts about racism, as if those protesting it's NOT racism can't tell the difference between someone complaining about something some white people do, and someone complaining about them personally.
It's very like when men say " but I don't do that" "women can be violent too" or "Myra Hyndley". Just a refusal to accept that sometimes it IS racism.

What happens more, which is really what people object to - is being on fire, and having folks say 'you're not on fire. Fire doesn't exist. And stop screaming - it's rude and unhelpful - and it doesn't make me feel good." All while you continue to burn...

Sorry, still piggybacking the conversation you two are having!

I hadn't seen that! It seems ludicrous... actually, yes, I have seen it. It is usually challenged as it is a ludicrous position to hold, but I am sure it must be enraging to see/hear it over and over again, whether it is challenged or not!!

But sometimes people like BIL just don't stop and, to be honest, the best could do was leave, and we walked away, years ago!

I'd happily shoot him... put him out of our misery. But that seems a bit beyond my capabilities, happy as it would make me! I have no solution for sheer lunacy!

Ugh, again. We need an edit button.

That racism exists, that it really fucking hurts, and we get why this aspect of your being is so urgent and raw and essential to you right now.

Is that more what the non-hurtful reply needs to be from white feminists to black feminists?

Ugh, I always post too soon. Thanks for replying using my own metaphor - that really helps me understand.

Because to me that seems normal, and also a world away from the current rhetoric.

Heist, to me it's not like someone being on fire and being given a teaspoon of water...... yeah, it would be nice if people gave more, but if you get enough teaspoons maybe that helps a bit... and at least people are doing something. (And appreciate your self reflection about what you are and are not willing to give. We all have limits... maybe some of us give tablespoons, others a bucket, a few a hose)....

What happens more, which is really what people object to - is being on fire, and having folks say 'you're not on fire. Fire doesn't exist. And stop screaming - it's rude and unhelpful - and it doesn't make me feel good." All while you continue to burn...

The intersectionality of racism and sexism is dismissed out of hand and if you look back over posts on this board you'll see it for yourself. Really?

If you mean posters like myself you won't see anything of the sort. You'll see another perspective, an explanation of our early education, which back in the 70s had an entirely different version of being non racist.

We acknowledge that that is out of date and have asked, repeatedly, if/how we can update ourselves. But most repsonses seem to be like yours - finger pointing, not helping!

And then what Heist just posted... I do what I do. It is more than many, less than many others. That it isn't in line with what A N Other wants is almost immaterial!

Or more correctly, a teaspoon they are willing to share.

It's true. I'm not prepared to go to jail, for example, for protesting black deaths in custody. I won't give money to causes that centre black males. It's true. I won't quit my job to picket the police station where the cop who kicked the Aboriginal teen on camera works. I won't tithe my 10%.

In that way, yes, all of us who refuse to give more than our willing teaspoon are saying 'not now, no more.'

I don't think me performatively proclaiming toxic Whiteness helps either, though, Tbh.

And I wonder how many of us would truly give more than our willing teaspoon to the other?

Thanks for the chance to reflect.

So, is the oblique answer that white women are not allies unless they engage in direct activism? Whose direct action? Violent or non-violent? Is the objection that white women never throw themselves body and soul into the black cause?

I guess I can understand that. It is likely very frustrating. Maybe it feels as if you're on fire, and white women want to help put the fire out, but they only have a teaspoon of water to spare?

Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., 16 April 1963

Letter from Birmingham Jail (ext)

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says

"I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom;

Who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright.

Because these are the kind of statements I literally don't understand. Maybe it's stupidity, maybe it's white privilege, maybe it's lack of clear communication?