Can white women be allies to BME women?

some of the ways in which BME women's (and men's) struggles have been appropriated and astroturfed by cults, criminals and other sinister forces This right here, I am a black woman who supports the statement "Black lives matter" but I do not support the organisation BLM. A marxist organisation centering Trans and "defunding the police" the resulting problems (increase in crime etc.) which will inevitably fall on Black womens shoulders (who are more likely to live in deprived areas) to carry. I am tired of certain groups whose agenda is to weaponize the emotional pain of history to activate certain groups all in the pursuit of power for themselves. Especially when those in power control cities like Chicago where 63 people (mostly black) were shot at the weekend with 16 fatalities (including Children).

I forgot to say I don't call myself an ally to anyone and don't expect anyone to call themselves an ally to me. I know that pisses people off. It doesn't mean I don't support things or don't want to receive support. I dislike the terms male allies and disablity allies as well. (I am a disabled woman). The only kind of allies I like are in the war games I play.

There's a seminal book by black female academics called (paraphrased from memory) 'All the blacks are men and all the women are white, but some of us are brave'. Which I think sums up very neatly the bind black women find themselves in.

I agree op this is an issue. I'm always shocked on FWR when race comes up as it's the one occasion where I don't see eye to eye with posters I otherwise normally agree with. 'White feminism' is often leveraged by white men to attack white women, but that doesn't mean white feminists having a blind spot about race can't also be true.

Before I react* and many other typos and bad spelling and grammar, sorry.

I don't call myself a feminist anymore because I don't think I fit in properly and I feel a bit uncomfortable with it, but I support women and I would say my main focus is for working class and poorer women of all skin colours and nationalitys.

Metoo was a big movement for women and I've been raped, abused and harrassed but didn't feel like it was for me. I feel like main feminism is pretty middle to upper class and is mostly white. I don't think that means they look down on working class or are racist, though some do and are, it's just how it is because it's easier for them to have a louder voice. I think many feminist women try to use their voice to help those who need it, but they are coloured by their own experience as we all are. I try to financially support smaller initiatives and movements that are more close to my beliefs and to support them by petitions and retweets etc. The next time I can afford to donate it will be to Sistah Space, the time before it was Transgender Trend. I think long and hard before I choose someone to donate to because I can't afford much. With BLM I think they have achieved some good things like a greater awareness of police brutality to black men which will hopefully lead to positive changes in that. Also I didn't know about the confederate flag before BLM and now it's finally being removed that seems like a good change to me. I support the campaign for justice for Breonna Taylor and think BLM have really helped bring her story to light. I haven't donated to BLM because I don't agree with much of what I read on their website, but I very, very much believe black lives matter and I hope one day that will go without saying.

Where I live now is a mainly white area and mainly more middle class, and my face to face experience with BLM here has not been positive as it was taken over by one (she was white) woman who has always lived here, is from a wealthy family and who has read some books as she kept telling us. She was patronising and every concern or question from the mainly older local community, who genuinely mostly seemed to want to support the cause and who seemed horrified by some of the experiences of black people that they'd heard about, was labelled white supremacy and she ranted about them on twitter in a very nasty way and said how tired she was of fighting this battled and that got her a lot of sympathy. I don't take her as representing the entire BLM movement at all but she is the type of "white feminist" that I personally dislike because she refused to see further than her own nose and she talked over everyone including even black people who she was supposedly fighting for. She was eventually shut down by a man (who was mixed race) and who helped to bring everyone together to see that most of them were arguing for the same things, and I don't think she liked that but it helped bring people back on focus. I think in my old area which is working class and the majority of the population is from a BAME background, with a much higher proportion of black people than where I am now, my experience would have been a lot different.

Overall, I think most people, including most feminists, are just trying their best. And they have their blind spots but I think that's human nature. I have seen the triggernometry interview shared above and follow Ayishat on twitter and think she is lovely. I loved her interview most of all because it reminded me that behind every angry rant I see online there is a person and most of us are trying to do what we think is right, even if we disagree on what that is. I can be too quick to judge things as illogical and I'm trying to teach myself to step back for a moment and think about what's in a person's heart because I react.

Hi @missyoumuch

I agree with you. Too many responses are basically “not all men”, but for white women, sadly. White women need to do more to include and centre BAME women. I do find lots of feminist organisations are making an effort , eg Filia. They are massive advocates of people like Hibo Wardere and Southall Black Sisters. But the fact is that BAME women are seriously underrepresented and we need to fix that.

At the same time, I understand the defensiveness to a degree. We are at a time when “white feminism” is used as a woke misogynist slur, akin to “Karen”, and a shorthand for shutting up women. Yes, white women have white privilege but it’s used as a technique by men trying to silence us.

Still, the main point is that we need to do more and not be defensive. At the moment, I’m looking to mentor a BAME woman at work and have sponsored my BAME employees to do a leadership programme. I’d welcome suggestions around more things to do (while also reading up on my own).

Totally agree, Wondersense. There are glaring issues needing the attention of feminism all around me here in white-ish Central Scotland.

None of them involve race but if there is a race based issue that feminism could address round here I'd genuinely like to help.

very quickly

The removal of bad energy and blockages (a common activity of Durek and of many other similar sharlatans) is a con trick is described beautifully here by the amazing Bob Nygaard whose life mission is to expose psychic scammers

A youtube search for "Bob Nygaard" will bring up some interesting videos.

Why do you think white women in power should behave differently to white men in power? If so, then why and in what way

Power always has the potential to corrupt, no matter which group has it. The world over. There are seriously corrupted governments the world over, and with some real monsters on the board.

The only black women (or men) I know are of the virtual kind - by that I mean on the internet.

That looks awful written down but it's true. I live in the North of England in a predominantly white area, the largest BME community here is asian (muslim).

I have known quite a number of muslim women on a personal level over the last 30 years but very few black women in that time and currently none at all.

So whilst I read articles and twitter posts, things on MN, sign petitions etc...really it's very theoretical for me.

I don't feel like I have much in the way of power to effect structural change - I'm a SAHM and carer at the moment. The only thing I can think of in practical terms is to try and encourage black women to join our real life feminist group to gain wider perspectives. Currently the group is (mostly) white and asian.

We are privileged because of our race. If you live in the Western world generally, you are privlidged too

If you hold the 'western world' up as being superior in some way, then, yes anyone living in a western democracy is relatively privileged. And that is because the western world is largely comprised of socially democratic, liberal societies with equal legal and civil rights for all.....and with governments which are relatively uncorrupted compared to other societies.

I'm sure we all hold men to the same exacting standards of allyship

I don't expect anything of an individual based purely on their 'belonging' to any particular group. How can you realistically expect that. We are all individuals.

My best hope that anyone will behave in a decent way based on the fact of their being human beings of potential for 'good' or moral behaviour. I'm often disappointed. This is life. the best We can do is to raise our own personal standards of conduct.

We are privileged because of our race. If you live in the Western world generally, you are privlidged too, but it doesn't mean life is easy, or that there aren't complexities. Maybe not ones as serious as the BAME one, but they're there.

For example, in a country as class orientated as England, how many working class people do think reach the highest positions in politics, in business? Not many. In the 'enlightened' newspaper of the Guardian, a ridiculously high percentage of their journalists or staff have been to private school, so hypocrisy is rife over there. Have you ever seen how Geordies are depicted in the Daily Mail? A newspaper who likes to rejoice in depicting every drunk night out in Newcastle whenever they can.

Have you heard or seen the vile, ignorant, offensive comments levelled towards Welsh people? How we're accused of being 'anti-English' or racist against English people for wanting more independence or daring to speaking our own native language, even in Wales? The media isn't interested in the North because we don't fit a cute but regressive stereotype. They would rather focus on the Valleys in South Wales because the dim, bronze tanned boyos & bimbos make good TV for English audiences who then lap it up and think that all of Wales is like that.

My first memory of an English tourist in my area was when I was in my mid-teens, when a man, angry that my flustered mum wouldn't reverse quickly enough to make room for him and his boat, opened his landrover window shouted 'Welsh c**t' as he went past us. I have seen similar aggression since (not that bad though) and offensive things have been said to my face that they wouldn't dare say to anyone else.

Anyway, I digress.

''On MN there are hundreds of posts about what many in society consider niche issues (eg trans rights) but race and ethnicity topics are rarely taken seriously. And posters who talk about racism are attacked frequently here. Yet it’s a safe space to talk about feminism when race is excluded from the conversation.''

The trans issue is definitely not a niche issue. It affects ALL women. That's a lot of people!! There is a perception that it's up to feminists to solve ALL problems. It's an endless brigade of 'whataboutery'. What about race? Don't you care about racism? What about the environment? Isn't that important too? We're supposed to care and solve absolutely everything, and of we don't we're demonised as uncaring bitches.

Racism is a separate issue from sex discrimination. Racism affects a lot of women, but not all women like trans ideology does. That's doesn't make racism not important, but you won't see issues lije that represented with the same frequency. I sympathise if you feel the lack of support, but we can't MAKE or force ethnic minorities to join feminist groups. It's not our fault that BAME women are underrepresented in your own networks. You might not have meant to be accusatory over this, but it feels like people expect feminists to solve every problem.

Considering that non-white people are a minority in the U.K, especially outside of the London where the picture is different, you simply aren't going to see as many threads focusing on these issues as you are on others. Statistically, it would be odd if you did.

Why do you think white women in power should behave differently to white men in power? If so, then why and in what way?

I’m speaking for myself @Signalbox. Don’t put words in my mouth

I didn't put words into your mouth, I asked you a question.

Can I add that not all women, or even all women who call themselves feminists, occupy the fixed position of calling out 'Male privilege'. Or envisioning the world in terms of a life long battle of the sexes, in which men ( as a group) always get to be the baddie; and where women get to occupy the eternal position of victimised moral righteousness.

Feminism, and the women's movement before that, is not necessarily a fixed or unchanging set of dogmas or articles of faith which must be adhered to; that is when feminism becomes just as bad as any other form of rigid inter-sectionalist thinking, in my view.

Women, as a group, have come a long way since even my childhood, and now occupy positions and roles, and have freedoms, legal and civil rights that were just not there in my youth. Certainly in most western liberal democracies.

Once you get to the point of legal equality, then differences, once again, come to the fore. Uniformity is not the goal. People will make different choices based on their values, their goals, the values of their wider community, and so on.

I think this is a really important point. Allyship relies upon the idea that all "BAME" women have identical views. Or if they disagree their views must be incorrect.

I agree & think this gets lost

The term 'Ally' allows you to disregard the experiences of Diane Abbott, or Priti Patel, depending on your political views

Equality is only achieved when people fight to protect the rights of people who aren't their allies

I think this is a really important point. Allyship relies upon the idea that all "BAME" women have identical views. Or if they disagree their views must be incorrect.

The OP said that It feels like white women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities

Does the OP recognise that BME women have multiple points of view? And that some feminists might be listening to women whose views differ from the OPs own views? I mean there are posters on this very thread (yinnybun, xxyzz and verybritishproblems) that have said that they are from ethnic backgrounds and are not comfortable with the ideas set out in the OP. Can I not listen to those women and support those ideas? Allyship seems to rely on a person supporting a very specific set of ideas / politics. I'm not sure how this can be a good thing.

As a percentage of the general population, I wonder how many white women are currently working at board room level in the UK? And why they are tasked with fixing racism particularly? Men have dominated board rooms since corporate culture began. What are they doing, specifically, to address racism? I'm sure we all hold men to the same exacting standards of allyship.

As far as I can see the only way an individual can change anything, is to treat people and respond to them on the basis of their character and their behaviour; & ( positively) on the basis of their skills and talents; and not on colour of their skin, or their sex. And in the contemporary West, certainly, I imagine we've come as far as we can, in terms of equality laws. Equality cannot be imposed. Equality of outcome will always depend on the priorities, choices & cultural or moral values of any one individual or community within the larger society,

However, as long as there are differences between people, there will always be a sub-set of people who will be abusive on account of personal differences. There will always be people who pick on others and single them out for bullying based on their particular characteristics. Which is why we'll never entirely be rid of sexism, or racism, or disabled'ism or any other ism'.

That doesn't mean we should stand back and tolerate those sorts of behaviours or treatments of others when we come across them. They should be called out when seen.That is the basis of a healthy & functioning moral code - which every society requires in order to be cohesive.