Can white women be allies to BME women?

Wow, a lot of frankly embarrassing NAWWALT and deflection/diminishing on this thread.

OP, I'm sorry. On MN generally and the Feminist pages especially, those of us benefitting from white privilege should take a back seat and listen. I personally don't like the phrase White Feminism because it seems a term for men to belittle the work of feminists in the West. However is our BAME sisters say we need to acknowlege more fully that western feminism is getting it wrong, my discomfort doesn't matter and White Fewminism is a thing to be challenged.

I recognise that UK feminism has not listened to BAME voices as much as it should have and that things that benefit exclusively BAME women aren't given as much support as those that affect white women too.

Other than listening and reading, and challenging racism when I hear it, I don't know what I should do as a white woman. I don't want to presume, overstep the mark or play White Saviour. So mostly I listen.

*I have seen many posts on MN saying not to support BLM because it’s pro trans which is anti-woman.

*I am a BAME woman and I don't support BLM UK the movement because it's pro trans which I don't believe in, also because it's Marxist which I also don't support. However I am in full support of 'black live matter' - of course they bloody do. The problem here stems from the movement, which has multiple aims, being named after the statement. It's all too generalising. It's like a few weeks ago when people were saying if you voted Tory you hate the NHS - it's more nuanced than that isn't it. Political parties deal with hundreds of issues and ive never found one for which I agree with all their ideologies and strategies so I pick the one I can most reconcile with which I think will be the least - bad option.

so where does a black feminist stand in this situation? If she’s pro BLM she’s anti-woman

It depends - if she's pro BLM UK in all specs including pro men in women's spaces I'd say she is anti-woman. However if she's pro their aim to end systematic racism but anti trans rights tramping woman's rights then of course not.

I'm pro some labour policies, some conservative policies, I even liked UKIP's policy on filling in potholes. Doesn't mean I support all of the thinking from any of these parties.

White women have sometimes been the strongest allies I've had in feminism. When other women in my family have told me to be respectful to the men because they're men and that I must dress conservatively to be a good Indian girl my white feminist friends have empowered me to resist it. It's not a part of my culture that I agree with and I feel it is rooted in misogyny. In others ways white feminists have failed to support me. When I complained about racism in the workplace I was told to check my privilege because I'd been to uni and have a good job - of course I recognise that privilege but doesn't mean if I was white I wouldn't have got even better opportunities, I wouldn't have had to send out twice the number of applications as my fellow white graduates, I wouldn't have been thinking about how to look as western as possible to make myself more appealing at interviews.

I feel white feminists absolutely can be my ally, as can BAME men. But they do need to listen. I am BAME and I am a woman and at different times in my life in different situations one will affect me more than the other so I will be more concentrated on fighting that side in that moment. However I will never be choosing between the two as they are both intrinsic to who I am.

Two-word answer from me to your question, OP.

Of course!

Why isn’t feminism identity politics? But race or sexual orientation are?

I included feminism. I think feminists are often guilty of using identity politics to make their points. Personally I don't see that as a positive side of feminism.

And before anyone says 'notallfeminists/notalllwhitewomen' take a second to think how infuriating it is when you hear 'notallmen'. (sorry for triple post!)

I don’t think that’s true. Most people can take different viewpoints it’s when posters come on to attack other posters instead of having a reasonable discussion.

Such as a poster who comes on to say that she is being abused by her husband and another poster tells her she should feel lucky because her husband is dead. The original poster was looking for a safe space to look for advice.

I don’t think Missy if looking for an echo chamber she just talking about her lived experiences and engaging through the thread.

Im a 40 year old white women, grew up on a council estate, have black women friends ( since childhood) and I do believe we are allies, never thought we were anything else but that’s obviously through my eyes. Maybe my thought process would be different if I was black.

“When feminists acknowledge in one breath that black women are victimized and in the same breath emphasize their strength, they imply that though black women are oppressed they manage to circumvent the damaging impact of the oppression by being strong—and that is simply not the case. Usually, when people talk about the 'strength' of black women, they are referring to the way in which they perceive black women coping with oppression. They ignore the reality that to be strong in the face of oppression is not the same as overcoming oppression, that endurance is not to be confused with transformation.” - bell hooks, Ain't I a Woman? Black Women and Feminism

@missyoumuch I love bell hooks! She is great on education as well. Do you know Lisa Delpit? Her book 'Other People's Children' about race politics in teaching (and the way well meaning white liberals aren't always helpful) was a real perspective changer for me. (a white teacher who teaches mainly black African girls).

And how does one decide which BW to listen to?

It would be good to have an answer to this question.

I’m in a few other majority white mothers forums and people share experiences of racism without much hostility from other users. MN is a different story.

That's interesting op. Why do you think that is? What about mn is different to the other sites you're on? This is the only forum I really use so haven't experienced different.

I think WW can be supportive of BW if we are prepared to put defensiveness aside and just LISTEN

What does this even mean? Disagreement is not the same as defensiveness. Just because someone does not agree with an idea it does not mean that they are being defensive. They just think that the idea isn't a good one. And how does one decide which BW to listen to?

What I found really interesting was that a lot of the arguments against OP have been things that we'd quickly shut down if it they were used against feminism

Personally I think the criticisms of OPs ideas equally apply to ideas currently used by the LGBTQIA+ movement and the feminist movement and the BLM movement. It is identity politics and it's divisive and dividing us as people. It's not healthy.

Mumsnet really is not a safe space

What people normally mean when they say ‘safe spaces’ is they want a space where they will not face criticism, or have to cope with different opinions and their opinions questioned. A space where they won’t be told they are wrong or have to justify themselves. In other words an echo chamber. They might feel ‘safe’ but they are anything but. Such spaces are dangerous for everyone.

Mumsnet is not, never has been and never tries to be a ‘safe space’.

I think WW can be supportive of BW if we are prepared to put defensiveness aside and just LISTEN.

I’m white and reasonably well educated, comfortable financially. I will be listened to, I have some social standing. I have the ear of white men to a degree as I’m more likely to be married to one and I definitely have white male relatives. As a mother I have far more influence than my DH over what my daughter thinks, watches and consumes, her toys and books because I’m more likely to be the primary carer. In fact I choose ALL her books and toys so for instance there ARE things you can do (buy fromBME female owned business, buy dolls/toys that aren’t pandering to the Euro centric beauty ideal, buy books which feature BME girls as the main character...)

So to me it is using what advantages we do have.

What I found really interesting was that a lot of the arguments against OP have been things that we'd quickly shut down if it they were used against feminism.

Not all white women... not all men
This isn't a problem.
If it's a problem it's not that bad.
What about...
I've never seen this/encountered it..
What about black women that say the opposite or don't feel oppressed... similar to the happy prostitute myth, wolf whistling is a compliment etc.
I,personally don't do this ... I'm a good guy or not my Nigel

And so on.

These comments are completely unacceptable and get shut down straight away when it comes to sexism, misogyny etc. so why are they the go to in a discussion about racism?

I personally believe that white women often don't incorporate black womens experiences into the feminist narrative
I agree. But I don't know how to incorporate black womens experiences, as they arent the same as mine and I don't know any black women well enough to ask.

I feel like I need to hear more experiences and more specifics about what black women need in feminism to be able to help.

I think the treatment of Allison Bailey shows that the community found in tribal division into ‘allies’ and ‘siblings’ is more important to many people than the end goal - equality.

I suspect it’s true that she would not have had the support she has received if her case had only been about race, but then she might not have had her crowd funder pulled if it wasn’t about feminism.

Fundamentally she loses both ways.

Just to offer a different perspective. My DH is black and works for one of the largest tech companies in the world. The BAME work network is very heavily female orientated. There are a far fewer number of black male employees than female. In almost all cases the spokespeople for black community are women.

I personally believe that white women often don't incorporate black womens experiences into the feminist narrative.

But love the personal attention to divert from difficult topics. Does give some people a headache I suppose.

Surely that's a bit unfair after the screen shot you posted which mentioned anti capitalism & you asked the below

since when has capitalism been so great for women or blacks people? Didn’t realise the feminism sub on MN is so pro-market.

What are your views on capitalism?

[quote missyoumuch]@EveleftEden I’ll read it now[/quote]
Make sure you sit down with a cup of tea it makes for alarming reading.