Can white women be allies to BME women?

I'd describe myself as working class and I've often found feminist forums and bits I've read to be very unrelateable. At university the women who belonged to feminist societies were universally affluent white middle class women and they did not speak for me at all.

The idea that most women can help other women by mentoring them and promoting them is very middle class. (Or even upper middle class).

For those saying they want to hear diverse black voices, do you not also acknowledge that we tend to hold an element of seeking out voices that validate our own? I find whiteness tends to centre BAME voices that echo their own thoughts, almost as a way of saying 'Hah! One of you agrees with me, therefore I'm right.' It has been used as a means to divide BAME voices and pit them against each other.

I can certainly say that as a Muslim woman who wears a hijab, it is very difficult to have my voice heard in white feminist circles. But my Muslim friends who advocate for removing the hijab (they're perfectly entitled to their view, of course) are lauded and given wide platforms, and I do suspect it is because they are saying exactly what white audiences want to hear.

When I say to men "listen to women" what I mean is take on board what they are saying, believe their experiences. Not that they have to shut up and take on the woman's opinion

Well it entirely depends on the context doesn't it

I agree that everything depends on context. And in a work based scenario it's definitely great to have a diverse range of opinions and backgrounds. But if a bathroom were being remodelled at work I might ask the women using that facility what they thought. However, not all women (sorry) have the same ideas on bathroom design and there would inevitably end up being a range of ideas some of which would be good and some not so good. I might then have difficulty in deciding which women to listen to and I might end up asking a plumber (who also happens to be male) who might tell me that some of the women's ideas are not particularly practical. Do I ignore the plumber because he is male?

It seems to me that when white women are being told to "listen to black women", what we are actually being told is to only listen to black women with a specific political outlook. It is a political statement as far as I am concerned and I don't agree with it.

@Signalbox

Well it entirely depends on the context doesn't it.

When debating with colleagues about the best way to tackle a project, or debating with friends about Brexit I want to be listened to because I'm a person and that's how debate works. But not because I'm a woman or 'Asian'.

However if my company are asking for ideas on how to encourage more women to apply for management positions or get more people of colour into our industry or even something trivial like where to put the sinks in the remodelled women's bathroom damn well I want to be listened to because I'm a woman and a person of colour. Because I'm the one with some insight into what puts me and people like me off these things or because I'm the one that's going to be using the services provided or facilities being changed. So of course they should listen to me on those things.

There are plenty of women who disagree with or are skeptical about the assertion of systemic patriarchy, or the wage gap, or that the only way to approach the issue of underrepresentation of women is to have quotas / all women shortlists etc. None of those perspectives stop them from agreeing on certain fundamentals about women's rights and protections

Exactly this.

All those saying which Black women should we listen to, they don’t all agree on everything, are presumably fine when men ask which women they should listen to, they don’t all agree on everything

I would be totally fine with this and actually I would never tell a man that he needs to "listen to women". I would argue my point and hope that I might be able to influence them in some way. If I couldn't I would shrug my shoulders and move on. I have no desire to force another person to believe what I believe. I am happy to listen to anyone but if what you are saying is nonsense I will disagree regardless of your identity. I honestly don't know how people can tolerate the idea that people are only listening to them because they are a woman or a minority. I find the idea totally patronising.

Although it doesn't discuss feminism, I think this article is really good nuanced discussion on BLM and race in the UK, which is relevant to a lot of the points made in this thread. unherd.com/2020/06/facts-vs-feelings-in-the-blm-debate/

Some black people have a specific 'anti-racism' viewpoint i.e. they assert systemic racism is deeply entrenched, some might even say white people are inherently racist or only white people can be racist, any and all differences in outcome between white and black populations is solely or predominantly due to this systemic racism, the only way to deal with racism is through things like affirmative action and so on.

Other black people take a very different viewpoint - they might be skeptical about assertions of systemic racism or feel like there's not enough clarity on how systemic racism is established and perpetuates itself, thereby making it difficult to know how it could be resolved. They might deeply resent things like affirmative action as they feel it is patronising to black people and other minorities and undermines such communities in the long-term. They view disparities between different racial and ethnic groups to be due to a variety of issues, not just racism - there could be cultural and economic factors also at play. And so on.

However, when people usually say that white people should listen or centre the voices of black people, they almost always mean black people who are of the first kind of viewpoint. There is an unusual silence around acknowledging the second type of viewpoint, because it appears to be diametrically opposed to the first one.

I would love to see a panel discussion between different black people with all these different viewpoints. I want to see a discussion and debate of the various angles and approaches. I have not been able to find one, but if it does exist, I'd be grateful if anyone could point me to it.

When I've listened to black people who have the second type of viewpoint, they mention that those with the first kind of viewpoint are unwilling to discuss and debate these ideas with them. I think those of us who are not black, could learn a lot from these sort of discussions but they either aren't taking place or not being shown in the mainstream media.

I'm not sure the Black Lives Matter movement really is one unified movement any more than Feminism is one unified movement:

blacklivesmatter.com/what-matters-2020/

BLM’s #WhatMatters2020 will focus on issues concerning racial injustice, police brutality, criminal justice reform, Black immigration, economic injustice, LGBTQIA+ and human rights, environmental injustice, access to healthcare, access to quality education, and voting rights and suppression.

This initiative will inspire and motivate people to ask themselves and their candidates are you really addressing What Matters in 2020?

www.facebook.com/BLMUK/

"All forms of oppression are interrelated, you cannot be for Black lives if you do not emphatically support the cause for Black queer lives, Black trans lives, the lives of Black women and so on."

BUT

www.blacklivesmatter.uk/

*IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR VISITORS:

WE ARE NOT AFFILIATED TO THE ACTIVIST COALITION USING:

Twitter @ukblm

Instagram @blmuk

We DO NOT have a gofundme page. They do.

THE UKBLM COALITION DO NOT HAVE AN OFFICIAL WEBSITE TO DIRECT YOU TO.

For information on BLM protest you need to contact @ukblm or other BLM coalitions, groups to preferred area directly.

What's going on in Seattle at the moment with CHOP/CHAZ links in with the ethos of BLM and a founder member Patrisse Cullorsapparently described herself as a "trained Marxist".

You actually have people in Europe, North America etc who believe that the reason top companies are run by mainly white men is because they’re the best at it.

Yes they definitely think they are naturally superior and the more of them there are, the more they will continue to think they are the default.

They also think they invented absolutely everything which is why it’s so poor that huge chunks are omitted from history learned at school. For instance we learned zilch about Empire and colonisation which then enables white people to say things like “if “they” don’t like it “they” can go home” or to wash our hands of anything going on in the US

Of course white women can be allies to BME women. The first (very America centric) article says as much - effectively some women responded as allies and some responded defensively.

Most activism is single issue. Black Lives Matter is most powerful as a message when it's about black lives, but when people dig down to the queer theory and anticapitalism they get confused or doubtful.

Feminism centers women. That's all it is really. Black women should be as centered as women of any other ethnicity, because your ethnicity is not relevant to whether or not you are a women, any more than your social class or income or whether or not you have children or your nationality or educational level or whether or not you have a disability has any bearing on whether or not you are a woman - it's just biology.

However obviously different women have widely different experiences - being black impacts lived experience in an all pervading way comparable to the way being female does. Being born with or aquiring a significant disability (a subject close to my heart) also impacts lived experience in an all pervading way, as much so as being female does IMO.

www.un.org/development/desa/disabilities/issues/women-and-girls-with-disabilities.html

"Women and girls with disabilities experience double discrimination, which places them at higher risk of gender-based violence, sexual abuse, neglect, maltreatment and exploitation. The global literacy rate is as low as one per cent for women with disabilities, according to a UNDP study"

Feminism should center all women. Sometimes unconcious bias means it centers non disabled middle class degree educated white women. That's not great. Some issues impact all women, and they shouldn't be dismissed as unimportant because they are not centering the right women.

There is a danger of everything being shot down by endless "whatabout"? "Why are you campaigning for better maternity provision in the UK generally and not focussing on the fact black women have the highest rates of maternal mortality in the UK?" it's a valid point, but should it mean the general campaign which doesn't mention race is bad? I don't think so, at all.

Everyone should listen to one another's experiences, and nobody should be dismissed, attacked, or told her experience is wrong.

That doesn't mean that women who enjoy white privelige aren't allowed to shout about the ways in which belonging to the sex class woman impacts them though. Just as rich black men can still talk about their own experiences of racism without being told to talk about poor black women's experiences of racism instead...

I think feminism centers women for being women first. That should mean all women, and the main issues are those related to being female. However we should listen to one another talk about how being black, or middle eastern, or asian, or regarded as "foreign", or poor, or disabled, or a mother, or gay, or a combination of those, have intersected with the core similarity of being female, and care about that.

That's what I think - internalised and institutional racism (as described in the second article posted in the OP) can coincide with feminism. That's a bad thing but it doesn't make feminism bad, it means that like every big, unfocussed, decentralised "movement" in vinverted commas it has problems which are hard to solve because it isn't a movement really, in the sense of having leadership and a structure or anyone in charge, let alone a company or political party or charity from which you can fire or expell anyone!

Your comment on posting "to let the record speak for itself" confuses me missyoumuch - do you mean you are gathering screenshot evidence for something?

I think the BLM movement in the US was started by women who describe themselves as Marxists, though I don't think it's the same as Marxism based on my (limited) understanding of it.

I know that one of the women who started the BLM movement in the US was a supporter of Maduro in Venezuela. A couple of years ago I had a work colleague who was from Venezuela originally who told me how bad things were for Venezuelans with Maduro, so her support of him made me suspicious or think she is a bit naïve perhaps.

Wait...it seems it’s only BLM UK that’s advocating Marxism? And not the original movement that came from the US? Is this correct?

The thing is BLM UK have become more of a group, akin to the suffragettes vs the feminist movement, with actual leaders, clear aims, they've got an official website, Instagram, Twitter ect and are shaping into a political group to be supported. BLM in the US is still more of a grassroots movement and although there are key people speaking out it hasn't been politicised into an actual group with verified and published aims beyond ending systematic racism in the same way BLM UK has. There's no BLM USA pages saying they support Marxism or are pro trans, although some activists say this vs the U.K. where some activists have taken it upon themselves to be the advocates with more aims which they say are tied into the movement.

I'd describe myself as working class and I've often found feminist forums and bits I've read to be very unrelateable. At university the women who belonged to feminist societies were universally affluent white middle class women and they did not speak for me at all.

I grew up in a very white WC environment and the first black women friends I had, I was about 20 and I was living in London. I realised how little I understood about their experiences. Even now I would say I have black female friends but not close friends. My DH is black so strangely I feel I understand many black male struggles far more than female.

I've always read books on this like Emma Dabiri don't touch my hair and BRIT-ish by Afua Hirsch but I can definitely do more.

All those saying which Black women should we listen to, they don’t all agree on everything, are presumably fine when men ask which women they should listen to, they don’t all agree on everything.

I am also gobsmacked at the posters here who are using well-known tactics of anti-feminist denial (not all men/loads of women aren’t feminists/there’s nothing we can do about it anyway, etc etc) but aiming them at race. If systemic patriarchy exists why is it so hard to believe that systemic white supremacy does too?

I think that BLM UK has been thoroughly infiltrated by white Middle class socialist worker types. They had a massive anti-Jewish twitter rant the other day which didn't seem to fit with the priorities of the average protestor. I feel like the 'momentum' of the movement is being taken advantage of by people with very specific aims which don't have much to do with black lives mattering.

Who to? Do all black women speak with one voice? If not how do white women know which black women to listen to?

To anyone who's speaking - especially in person. To actually hear it and digest it before responding - not just clapping back.

Tbh I feel we all need to listen to each other more. Questions should be exactly that - questions to learn more, not little underlying micro aggression to undermine a movement and not rhetoric.

I actually do feel there's to much telling your must agree with me' from every single side right now. Of course everyone thinks they're right, that's why they think that way, but doesn't mean people who don't agree are abjectly wrong about everything.

My grandmas used to say to me the vast majority of people want the same things ultimately, just believe there's very different ways of achieving those things, that's why we must listen to and questions everyone's ideas in order to find to best solutions to problems.

This shouldn't be taken as question everyone's experiences. When a person says X is racist/sexist it's not your place to go oh but it's not because Y. But you can ask 'why' and listen to their response. Then when they say this is how to fix this you're allowed to go 'what about this, would that work too', and then they can go 'that'd work in this way but fail to address this aspect', then you go 'ok, so how about we adapt it this way'. And this goes on for a long time.

Personally, I believe that as long as we have capitalism in it's modern form there will always be people at the bottom, there will always be disparities, and there will be populations defined as the ones it is ok to treat poorly and to disenfranchise.

I agree with this. I'm not sure what the alternative to capitalism is & if that alternative would work & be better but I do think capitalism relies on other countries dominating others & their populations & is racist. I'm not sure what the answer is.

Can some one explain to me why BLM is pro trans? What have a missed?

I feel white feminists absolutely can be my ally, as can BAME men. But they do need to listen

Who to? Do all black women speak with one voice? If not how do white women know which black women to listen to?

I have occasionally seen people say they think that if we tackle sexism, it will have more effect for more people - including those affected by things like race or disability etc - than tackling those things individually.

I don't entirely agree with that, I think it's too simplistic, but I also don't think it comes out of a place of racism or thinking racial justice isn't important. It's more that they think this is the most efficient way to actually get things done. A really simple example might be, would the US government help more people if they put in a program to help a particular race group with medical expenses, or all women and their children? Probably the latter really, it would help people across the board and might well help marginalised groups as much as a targeted program would.

So from the POV of making actual concrete policy differences, agitating for women might, in that case, be most effective.

What I think this points to is something more serious as a problem in a lot of anti-racism movements, in that they are largely these days shouting after abstract and vague goals. Asking people to admit that they are racist, to say, yes, I believe systemic racism exists. etc. Largely with no clear material explanation for what that means, how it is transferred in society, and what should be done about it concretely. Really, who gives a shit if some woman says yes, I believe in toxic white feminism, it accomplishes zero. What would make a difference is to say, police violence is a problem, this is what causes it and how it is distributed, these three changes to how we train/fund/use the police, or bringing poor people out of poverty, or improving low income housing, will make a difference to that. That will really concretely address racial disparities, and other disparities too, unlike white women admitting they are racist.

Personally, I believe that as long as we have capitalism in it's modern form there will always be people at the bottom, there will always be disparities, and there will be populations defined as the ones it is ok to treat poorly and to disenfranchise. That need to define such people has always been behind the idea of race, and even if we make sure that PoC or BAME people are as likely to be rich or poor as white people, that will be true under that system. So I think racial and all other forms of economic justice require changing that system - but it's not fundamentally about race. Race will disappear when it is no longer associated with the outcomes of that system. I resent being told that that is a racist POV, and I should embrace the race essentialism of identity politics - it's something I've thought about a lot and arrived at as a result of careful observation, thinking, and reading, and it has nothing to do with ignoring black women or anything else. (And FWIW I reject BLM as an organisation mainly because I think they cater to race essentialism and empty gestures, and because they fail to take their supposed marxism seriously enough to look at the mechanisms of race. They are really just anarchists.)

But there are others who believe capitalism is not a factor, and they are also entitled to that opinion. I don't know why they would be expected to embrace a movement that claims to be marxists either, or why not doing so would make them racists.