Can white women be allies to BME women?

Though there isn't so much a problem with agreeing with those you agree with - it's more a matter of acknowledging that there are actually different experiences and viewpoints and considering those while developing their own view. And also I think respecting the others view and experience, even if you come to different conclusions.

My take has been that in the last 10 years, maybe more, it's tended to be the progressive left that has pushed this view that there is one black voice or one indigenous voice or one womens voice. Typically conservatives have been better at acknowledging that there are differences within these communities.

I'm not sure why that is, but Adolph Reed I know suggests that this has been about the rise in many of these groups of an educated managerial class, many of whom make a living as activists. And they also tend to have positive relationships with interests with a lot of money in government or business.

I’m sorry you’ve experience that. I totally believe it, although it’s not my personal experience. I wonder if there is also a class dimension. My experience is that more upper or middle class women live in predominantly mono cultural areas, whereas working class women are more likely to live in multicultural areas. So may be more aware and more likely to have seen racism happening overtly with their friends and family.

It's so ironic how many (presumably) white women on here are basically saying their equivalent of #NAMALT they really can't understand the irony of it.

OP I'm with you and have always felt that as a BAME woman it's difficult to be engaged in feminist discussions because they tend to be focused on white women

As a feminist surely it's important to consider issues that affect other demographics of women as much as those that affect the more typical societal perception of the typical feminist white woman

Less with 'typical'. From my experience, women have always supported other women going right back to the foundations of the women's movement - even as early as the 1920/30's.

This narrative of 'white feminism' is something I simply don't recognise -as if it is something discrete from women's rights generally. Something separate from focusing on the experience of women everywhere; from any culture in which women experience repression on account of their sex.

From personal experience, as one example, I supported a Sikh friend who had refuse an arranged marriage, and had subsequently run away from home ( early 1980's). Her father would come searching for her in the corridors of our college; threatening to kill the family and himself if she did not return.

when she finally relented and agreed to a match, i was not invited to the wedding because i was a 'shameful' single parent. as it happened, she went on to divorce that husband, and now lives a single woman, having adopted an abandoned baby girl from the Punjab in India.

I just don't recognise this characterisation of 'white feminism' as a defining thing. Feminism is about centring the experiences of women wherever they may.

Lots of women don't think patriarchy is a thing as such, and isn't responsible for differences between male and female social roles.

It's a fallacy to say that just because someone believes in x, the should also believe in y. Since x isn't y, you have to justify both separately, both in terms of empirical observations and in terms of theoretical explanations.

The big difference as I see it between sex and race is that race is a clear and distinct biological reality with consequences. Men and women have different bodies, and even if the world was perfectly ethical egalitarian those would lead to different outcomes for men and women. Given that it isn't perfectly ethical and egalitarian there is a tendency for those differences to be translated into exploitation. And then, women themselves disagree about things like what differences are exploitive, or how to address that, etc.

So it's entirely possible to reject patriarchy as an abstraction but still see that women's bodies are the material principle that determines the nature of many of women's social problems. Personally I think this is a much more robust way to think about it because it is far more rooted in the material principle. "Patriarchy" can mean whatever people want and often its obscures looking for the real and specific origins of a problem which could be acted upon.

Race however is a construct in a much more fundamental way. There is no real reason a person with darker skin should have different social outcome than a person with lighter skin. It was chosen, created as a category, for another reason, in order to support a very particular economic and political situation. So that is the real organising structure of race. And unlike sex differences, race as a category could be totally deconstructed under the right conditions.

All of which is to say - there are all kinds of reasons people might think quite differently about race and sex, and there is nothing hypocritical about treating them and thinking about them differently.

The point is the OP is here suggestion that if white women don't seem to accept her narrative around race, they must be ignoring black women or closing their eyes etc.

I'm not entirely sure it was about accepting everything when OP started,but rather about listening. She was questioned over being a troll or a man and many other dismissive things.

You can listen to someone even if you disagree. You might refuse to engage or try and give counter arguments. You might change your mind,you might not. But a lot of the comments have been similar to putting your fingers in your years and shouting "La la la la I can't hear you".

The similarities I pointed out earlier made me very uncomfortable, I can't even imagine how they made OP feel.

And reading the first article, I agree that it is sadly a common knee jerk reaction to feel personally attacked when you are not the victim. I have seen much of this since the GF protests, even in subtle and seemingly non harmful ways. But it is harmful and it's flawed logic, I feel it really comes down to a strange sense of pride and it annoys me that it gets in the way of discussion and awareness. It has long been the case that crimes even against young girls and young women, the 2 demographics usually the most sensationalised by the media, are still under reported when the victim is black. How can we stand by while this happens?

It's hard though because being frank, I'm also very aware of seeming patronising or "white knight"-ish when I get too over passionate about these issues and I don't want that to be made an issue, as again it detracts from the actual discussion of what is important.

Well I haven't read the full thread but id like to address the OP.

I am white and I agree that race is an issue definitely left out of some communities of feminists. White privilege is real and we also need to, as feminists, be able to address and bring awareness to issues that either solely or disproportionately affect BME women. For example it's my understanding that in the UK black women especially are substantially more likely to suffer from medical issues during pregnancy and birth.

So while feminism has it's own crosses to bear and the fight for racial equality deals with separate issues, sometimes they conflate and as a feminist surely it's important to consider issues that affect other demographics of women as much as those that affect the more typical societal perception of the typical feminist white woman?

And you are being really reductive too. The idea that there are a variety of views in the black community, and that some include challenging ideas like privilege, isn't really the same as saying, oh, some prostitutes don't feel oppressed so prostitution must be ok. (Though, actually you do need to address that if you want to say prostitution is oppressive, it's a relevant question about prostitution.)

The point is the OP is here suggestion that if white women don't seem to accept her narrative around race, they must be ignoring black women or closing their eyes etc. But the discussions I see here on MN about race are actually very much the same things I see from the BAME community themselves, not just individuals, but academics, activists etc. There are lots of people who reject CRT and identity politics.

Why do all white people need to accept that one particular way of thinking about race when racialised communities don't?

We get defensive because we don't think we are like that.
Then, if we think it through we realize that Black women lose out on both BLM and Feminism. Pretty effing enraging when you think Black Live Matter was formed by three Black women, and may I just say STORME DELARVERIE among many others who did the work and walked their talk every effing day.
The very least we can do is hear what Black women are saying and support their voices and their work.

You don't see these feminist housewives ever giving a hoot about black or Asian women's issues. While they're arguing over some dude at work calling them sexy, some poor Asian woman is having her right to pick her husband taken away. Another black woman is going through GM. Just saying

What a load of narrow minded rubbish. you need to get out of your bunker. What is this 'feminist housewife' thing, anyway? sounds like a bit of a blanket characterisation which is every bit as prejudiced as any other.

In my experience which goes back quite a way, women have always supported their friends regardless of skin colour of religious background. Only when you move in narrow circles do you not see any of that.

But sexism is real. And affects half the world

Have you ever considered that some of what is labelled 'sexism' is actually just a recognition of natural biological differences, and differences that result out of that - such as child care responsibilities/strength differentials and so on?

Different cultures and societies deal differently with these natural differences. Some societies entrap people in gender roles in a very rigid way, on account of birth sex; others ( particularly western liberal democracies) less so.

I don't agree that transwomen suffer from 'sexism' in the same way at all. Baby girls, in some cultures, are killed, or abandoned, at birth - nothing to do with 'gender identity'; and young girls in other cultures, are subject to FGM - not something a young male is likely to experience ( yes, there is circumcision, but that is not of quite the same order, even though important).

Women have suffered/ continue to suffer from certain social discriminations because of their differences - those resulting from biology - and from the roles/inclinations that arise from that.

We'll never be rid of 'sexism' until the day that sex no longer exists. However, if you judge sexism to be the treatment and characterisation of women & men purely on account of their biological sex, and not on the basis of their character, skill, talent and so on.....then yes!

Sexism is a two way street, just as racism is. Women can be incredibly sexist about men, too.

For years we were told FGM was a cultural issue, and to criticise it was racist. White women couldn't go there.
Now we know it is a woman and girls issue, and many white women support anti-FGM campaigners (see Twitter) and it is illegal (I know - nearly zero convictions a failing) see UK Govt safeguarding guidelines - suspected planned FGM MUST be reported, it is illegal not to report it. A legal duty of care to the mainly black girls and women it affects.

Re: women's rights vs black women's rights. Divide and conquer. TRA affects all women. My hijab-wearing British-Asian colleague is fully clued up on how TRA affects her: risk of males in women-only swimming session; she can no longer go swimming. Risk of males in Brownies; she can't send her daughter, just in case, a male is there.
When I wrote to complain about changes to GRA, I used her lived experience in my letter to my MP, in my examples of what was wrong with the proposed legislation. She also wrote to her MP.
Some women of all colours support each other, especially when we share the same physical space and speak with each other.

'I think if feminists can’t accept white privilege exists in the same way male privilege does, then they are living very blinkered lives.'

I think this is very true. I am a white woman. I have no idea how hard it is to not enjoy white privilege- but I do know how clearly I see the privilege that men enjoy and that plenty of wonderful men that I know don't see it.

I wonder how much I miss because of my experience . It does however make me want to be better/ understand more - I think if we all do that then the world will continue to become a fairer place.

You don't see these feminist housewives ever giving a hoot about black or Asian women's issues. While they're arguing over some dude at work calling them sexy, some poor Asian woman is having her right to pick her husband taken away. Another black woman is going through GM. Just saying.

Surely we women (of all sorts) should stick together 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏽‍♀️🤷🏿‍♀️

It's not really about prioritising your sec over your race IMO.
But sexism is real. And affects half the world.
Black women are part of that world.
Transwomen will be affected to.
Both these groups will of course have different issues.
White (biological) women are still affected by sexism. Don't think for a minute they are not.

Lumping all women if any colour together seems a bit bigoted to me

Absolutely, and it actually reinforces racism, it doesn't break it down.

Everyone suffers from confirmation bias towards their existing beliefs, no reason why issues specific to BAME women would be different.

I wonder if perhaps places like MN could be fertile grounds for overcoming it. In linguistically's hijab scenario, a woman who thinks the hijab is oppressive won't necessarily be open to what she's hearing if it is from one woman who wears the hijab. However, if there were a thread here with many women who wear it talking about it then lurkers will read and understand the complexities, the depths, the nuances.

For me that is how MN has educated me on other topics. Whether it be women's rights, step parenting, special needs, boundary disputes, face washes or loo brushes: a large number of women piling in with their experience, opinion and humour opens my eyes in whole new ways. Generally I have nothing to add, I just lurk and learn.

I suspect it needs a critical mass of posters posting. Of course posters will only keep posting if the threads are helpful and/or entertaining to themselves, which in turn depends on there being enough people with relevant experiences being on the same threads, which kind of puts us in a chicken and egg situation.

Lumping all women if any colour together seems a bit bigoted to me.

If someone said "all black women.... blah blah blah" would that not wind you up a teensy bit OP?

I can certainly say that as a Muslim woman who wears a hijab, it is very difficult to have my voice heard in white feminist circles. But my Muslim friends who advocate for removing the hijab (they're perfectly entitled to their view, of course) are lauded and given wide platforms, and I do suspect it is because they are saying exactly what white audiences want to hear

You are making some pretty sweeping generalisations about white feminists there? Mind you, what if you are white and don't call yourself a feminist. Have you had a better reception there?

Lots of religions wear head coverings, including some Christian groups. I used to wear one myself, but not when I was expected to, but when I chose to and it meant something to me as a symbol of submission to God's will.....not man's.

I absolutely agree with this and see it all the time. I don’t blame whites who do that because it is what they’re comfortable with and what the system has made sure that they are comfortable with and people don’t like being uncomfortable. Usually, the very minorities that echo them are usually ignorant of their own history and believe what society tells them about their own people

I’d happily debate those types. I often notice with some of the debates I’ve seen, if you ask a logical and direct question that they don’t expect to be asked, they repeat their previous points and deflect from what they’ve been asked, hoping people will forget about it or they can run the clock down so they don’t have to answer

Everyone tends to do that, though, to reinforce their own world view - just like you are doing now, with the total assumption of being correct and righteous. Since when did it become appropriate to refer to a whole group of people as 'whites'? If I referred to 'blacks' would that be considered acceptable to you?

If you think you can come on this board and have every agree with you and thus deliver an unchallenging safe space then you'll find you are wrong in that assumption. Anyone who disagrees with your exact stance is a 'type'? Really?

The idea that anyone who has a university education, or who has taken the trouble to educate themselves beyond their parents' level of education, and who has, as a result, become confident and articulate, must be privileged and 'middle class' is really quite prejudiced and patronising in itself.

It suggests that working class people are not able to articulate any arguments for themselves, or see a wider political picture?

The terms working and middle class are so over-used as ways of dismissing the arguments of those who one disagrees with; and they mean different things to different people.

For those saying they want to hear diverse black voices, do you not also acknowledge that we tend to hold an element of seeking out voices that validate our own? I find whiteness tends to centre BAME voices that echo their own thoughts, almost as a way of saying 'Hah! One of you agrees with me, therefore I'm right.' It has been used as a means to divide BAME voices and pit them against each other.

I absolutely agree with this and see it all the time. I don’t blame whites who do that because it is what they’re comfortable with and what the system has made sure that they are comfortable with and people don’t like being uncomfortable. Usually, the very minorities that echo them are usually ignorant of their own history and believe what society tells them about their own people.

I’d happily debate those types. I often notice with some of the debates I’ve seen, if you ask a logical and direct question that they don’t expect to be asked, they repeat their previous points and deflect from what they’ve been asked, hoping people will forget about it or they can run the clock down so they don’t have to answer.

A lot of history ignores the contributions of minorities to the point that it seems they have not contributed to society so there is this unsaid sense that they don’t deserve equality and equity or should be grateful because there are worse places they can be while ignoring the issues they face in the country they’re in.