Can white women be allies to BME women?

@missyoumuch what and how should we change? What do you think will help?

Op I am working my way through your posts and the linked articles. I won't pretend - they make for some uncomfortable reading, but I am cringing at all these warnings to be nicer and to not get people's backs up. (If only I had a £ for every time a man has said that to me.....)

And at the idea that anger never brings about change.

@Kay1341 and she was trampled on and died from her injuries for her troubles. In my experience you can’t continue to campaign for change when you’re dead.

Thsnk you @ValancyRedfern

ValancyRedfern
Please write your MP about ensuring migrant women are protected in the new DV Bill. Southall Black Sisters have create d a template email. (Shamelessly copied from another thread, but I wanted to offer a practical way in which white women can support bame women today) southallblacksisters.org.uk/news/sbs-needs-your-help-to-protect-migrant-women-subject-to-domestic-abuse/

Ask yourself why.

I think it's because it's easier to feel personally attacked when a prevalent negative trait is identified in people you share commonalities (e.g. sex, race) with or when you have close friends/relations/spouses that share those commonalities. I've been reading rebuttals to NAMALT and Not My Nigel as well as the Rules of Misogyny and comparing them to some of the responses you've received; it's been both edifying and revealing.

I think it shows that, whatever demographics we fit into, we're all human (a bold claim, I realise).

I get that you’re angry but anger never brought about change. It brought violence and alienation and a continued circle of fighting.
Emily Davidson literally threw herself under the king's horse.

Members of all groups can behave in oppressive and supportive terms. But I think there's a huge difference between "attacking people" and pointing out a systematic issue. Mainstream white feminist campaigning has since the time of the empire had racist undertones. Calling us to recognise that legacy isn't an attack. If women's campaigning against misogyny and sexism was simply dismissed by saying that not all men hate women, we wouldn't get anywhere on terms of real policy and legislative changes that need to be made to achieve greater equality in the society.

@missyoumuch I would, and I have before. You cannot ever lump any group of people together. Not men, not transgenders, not women, not skin colour or religions.

There will ALWAYS be shitty people in every single one of those categories. E.g - To assume that all men are violent misogynists is harmful. It will alienate men from feminism and whether anyone will accept it or not, we need male support in order to bring about change.

To assume all white feminists are toxic and racist is outright harmful. It will alienate those white feminists that are neither, and whether you accept it or not you need white feminists to help black feminists. Though I will point out here, we also need black feminists to help white ones. We should be working together to bring about change.

I get that you’re angry but anger never brought about change. It brought violence and alienation and a continued circle of fighting.

@missyoumuch

How could we make feminism more inclusive?

Do we accept that there should be different factions & that's ok?

Serious questions.

@missyoumuch the simple fact is you just don't know what everyone on the thread cares about.

Wouldn't it a better use of energy to engage with people & bring them round to wanting to end racism?

To join together?

I think grouping any people together based on the colour of their skin is wrong and will definitely get people’s backs up.

You can’t say all white women are the same - we’re not. You will have racist white women and non racist white women. You’ll have white women who support black women and white women who won’t.

Attacking people will get you absolutely nowhere, and even if you’d not meant your OP as an attack, that’s the way it comes across. You’ll lose people’s support that way. It would be like someone telling you all black women are the same, they all act the same etc. It’s just not true, and it helps no one to view an entire group of people as exactly the same.

I wish you the best of luck with getting the change you want though. Maybe this is the year we can all just learn to coexist without hatred.

Yes I’ll change my mindset to reduce my increased risk of maternal mortality. It’s in our little brown heads I guess.

Has anyone said that? Several explanations for the higher rate of complications were given in that article. It's multifactorial isn't it and includes poverty, social factors, attitudes of healthcare workers, including those from the BAME community towards black women. No one is saying it's in your head.

This kind of resistance to self-reflexivity seems to be underpinned by the same logic as White men's defensiveness in the face of BLM. There has been a lot of noise made about how "we're not racist" and how "not everyone is racist" at the expense of engaging in discussion on how racism is still prevalent, how we benefit from it and how it should be dismantled. Not being racist is not the same as being anti-racist. When societal structures privilege Whiteness, there is no neutral standpoint.

On another thread I raised the point that BLMUK tweeted an antiZionist tweet and that a group who supports BLM,BLM Oxford used an anti Semitic image on its Facebook page. I was told that one person tweeting something, even if in behalf of an organisation, should not be assumed to be representative of everyone who supports that organisation. So, would you apply your message to BLM too then? Are people dismissing claims of anti semitism against BLM doing what you are accusing white feminists of doing?

It seems no one is blameless in any of this and the adage "when you point a finger four more point back at you" seems fitting here.

Clearly, we all, no matter what sex, race, religion have biases. Why can't we all have respectful, honest conversations about them?

*There comes a time when you have to take responsibility for yourself, for making changes to to your own life, your own mind set.

As i see it there will always be sexism and there will always be racism because wherever there is difference there will be some people who use that difference to make generalisations, or who use the difference as a focus for bullying or abuse. 'Tribalism' exists, and is a basic drive in people and in communities the world over.*

How do you propose George Floyd should have changed his mindset to survive?
I find the attitude that something exists, therefore it should not be addressed very pessimistic. The whole point is that people who face institutional disadvantage do not have the same scope to take responsibility for themselves to change their situations. Black people changing their mindset will not prevent police from killing Black people or hiring committees from choosing the white candidate.

Yes, but without biological difference, without the female biology, than one cannot be subject to these pressures and manipulations in the first instance. Yes, 'womanhood' and 'manhood' are modelled on certain cultural expectations, but those expectations and models arise from the very real fact of biological differences, and from the fact that females will tend to be more nurturing, caring and so on. Because biology is actually a lot more primal than many are prepared to admit - certainly in some feminist circles.

That does not explain why these forms of violence are context specific, if they arise from universal biological differences. If for the sake of argument are to believe biology is the main determinant for women's caring behaviours (which has not been confirmed by research), that would actually support the pro-FGM stance that argues that these practices enhance women's biologically ordained qualities, characteristics and behaviours.

What would you say the barriers to 'black women' being heard are? Black women are very diverse; from different communities, different value systems and different cultural practices.
I absolutely agree there is huge amount if diversity. But Black women statistically face far greater disadvantage in in comparison to White women in taking on lead decision-making roles and senior management positions, entering higher education and building careers in the labour market. Black women as asylum seekers and refugees also lack most voting rights and right to stand for office, even most FGM affected women come from refugee backgrounds. Recognising and supporting Black women to exercise their agency is about dismantling conditions that disproportionately favour White people.

This kind of resistance to self-reflexivity seems to be underpinned by the same logic as White men's defensiveness in the face of BLM. There has been a lot of noise made about how "we're not racist" and how "not everyone is racist" at the expense of engaging in discussion on how racism is still prevalent, how we benefit from it and how it should be dismantled. Not being racist is not the same as being anti-racist. When societal structures privilege Whiteness, there is no neutral standpoint

You might find it reflexive, but I believe it to be true. Making these big, sweeping statements about dismantling 'white privilege'/'Male privilege' end up being totally circular and meaningless.
There comes a time when you have to take responsibility for yourself, for making changes to to your own life, your own mind set.

As i see it there will always be sexism and there will always be racism because wherever there is difference there will be some people who use that difference to make generalisations, or who use the difference as a focus for bullying or abuse. 'Tribalism' exists, and is a basic drive in people and in communities the world over.

The obvious goal is equal civil and legal rights.......beyond that I tend to think we have gone pretty much as far as we can. Beyond that you have individual and cultural differences, values, priorities and so on.
Multi-culturalism can enrich a society, but it can also heighten conflict between different groups. and even larger groupings, such as 'the black community' are themselves really quite diverse.

Sorry I don't know how to make clicky

To highlight a paragraph for response, you copy and paste and put an asterix at each end. That should 'bold' it.

So White women campaign for Black women's issues, without working to dismantle the barriers Black women face in being heard on the society

So, black women have to take responsibility for their own 'conditions' then. Is that what you are saying? If so, then I agree. But you can't have it both ways. It's either "we need your support", or"we need you to mind your own business".

What would you say the barriers to 'black women' being heard are? Black women are very diverse; from different communities, different value systems and different cultural practices.

FGM practicing contexts gender and womanhood are socially constructed so that a woman is not a complete woman without FGM (through beliefs that girl becomes a woman, FGM enforces women with gendered characteristics of caregiving, submissiveness, chastity and obedience, and makes their genitalia align with cultural perceptions of "normal" female bodies)

Yes, but without biological difference, without the female biology, than one cannot be subject to these pressures and manipulations in the first instance. Yes, 'womanhood' and 'manhood' are modelled on certain cultural expectations, but those expectations and models arise from the very real fact of biological differences, and from the fact that females will tend to be more nurturing, caring and so on. Because biology is actually a lot more primal than many are prepared to admit - certainly in some feminist circles.

Yes, but you cannot make global statements about whole groups of people - in this case 'feminists'. Have you spoken with all 'feminists'?
This kind of resistance to self-reflexivity seems to be underpinned by the same logic as White men's defensiveness in the face of BLM. There has been a lot of noise made about how "we're not racist" and how "not everyone is racist" at the expense of engaging in discussion on how racism is still prevalent, how we benefit from it and how it should be dismantled. Not being racist is not the same as being anti-racist. When societal structures privilege Whiteness, there is no neutral standpoint.