Can white women be allies to BME women?

I’m white with a mixed race daughter - we’ve always had the view that black women have two prejudices to deal with - being black and being female - a double whammy - completely shit and more difficult, I think, than being just female - hope I haven’t offended - just an observed lived experience of relatives and friends.

Listening is a good first step but it isn’t the final destination.

True. However it's a very important first step, one which many posters are reluctant to take while arguing at the same time that there's no issue.

As long as that first step is not taken , no one's going anywhere.

Listening is a good first step but it isn’t the final destination. Just do what you can in the space you occupy according to your values.

I have no idea what it feels like to be black. But I do have a disability and I know how I would feel, and indeed do feel, when able bodied people decide that they're going to "do" something to help me.

I think there is truth in white women sometimes hiding behind feminism/sexism to avoid dealing with race. Sometimes black women get stuck having to be quiet about being black or quiet about being a woman and prioritising their black experience - or rather, black men or their families.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras

I agree. In fact I watched a interesting video clip of Malcom X telling people to beware of the white liberal who was too keen to take the lead rather than supporting.

Tbh I was at the Arch Bishop of Canterbury saying that the Church of England are looking at which religious statues need to be taken down in case they caused offence. A black friend of mine posted on facebook that she certainly didn’t want him to do that on her behalf and if anything it was cause a lot of unnecessary racial tension.

All I can say to that is that when a man listens to me when I'm telling him of my experiences as a woman, then I feel something has shifted between us and that a start has been made. I'm sad to say it doesn't happen often, that I frequently come away feeling patronised, deflected, ignored and I hate the idea that this is being replicated here.

Personally, I don't appreciate saviours swooping in and doing what they consider to be helpful because usually they have no real understanding of what is actually helpful. Because that's my belief I'm waiting to here the black community explain what they actually want to be done and how we can best help. Is that wrong? It just doesn't feel right for white people to be coming up with what we think are "solutions" but maybe I'm wrong.

Well said Floisme.

Women don't all think the same way either. Nevertheless there are men who I think of as allies. They're not necessarily doing anything world changing but they're the ones who listen when we tell them about our experiences, who don't interrupt or talk over us, who don't wring their hands, or make excuses or try and change the subject and who go away and think about what we tell them.

Likewise if there are BME women who feel they have been let down by white women then it feels like the least I can do is swallow my discomfort and listen. Please carry on op.

This is why I really feel we should try to move beyond factionalism.

You can’t really be “allies to BME women” because BME women are not a gestalt collective. They don’t all necessarily believe or think the same way and thinking they are means you’ll be going round the houses. In fact the thinking all black people are x is the sort of thinking that’s got us into this mess in the first place.

@missyoumuchwhat and how should we change? What do you think will help?*

"That's not remotely clear to me beyond I should accept collective guilt for every bad thing a white woman has ever done but on the other hand doing anything positive is just white saviour syndrome."

Sadly this is the effect right now on white women who truly want to be helpful.

The supposed rules of misogyny are basically all logical fallacies or sticks to beat people with without engaging with what they've said. As is the claim of NAMALT 95% of the time.

It's a shame they're applied that way because there is a kernel of truth hiding within.

But as for finding those concrete policy directions, nothing I've seen of CRT or identity politics makes me think they create that discussion or enable that change. Quite the opposite, they tend to deflect from it and obscure exploration of it. "Institutional racism" as an explanation is just an effect masquerading as a cause. Which IMO is why CRT is feted by many of the elite and corporate bodies- it allows them to look with it and concerned without requiring action.

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

@missyoumuchwhat and how should we change? What do you think will help?

That's not remotely clear to me beyond I should accept collective guilt for every bad thing a white woman has ever done but on the other hand doing anything positive is just white saviour syndrome.

Not being racist is not the same as being anti-racist. When societal structures privilege Whiteness, there is no neutral standpoint.

For the sake of context to those who might be wondering, these concepts and phrases stem out of something called Critical Race Theory that formed in the USA.

For critique on the concepts underpinning anti-racism movement / CRT, here are some links from a few different perspectives and political standpoints. There is a lot of ongoing debate between black scholars, academics and thinkers on this topic.

Barriers to black progress: Structural, Cultural, or Both?

How anti-racism hurts black people - John McWhorter

unherd.com/2018/10/clr-james-rejected-posturing-identity-politics/

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/17/ta-nehisi-coates-neoliberal-black-struggle-cornel-west

newdiscourses.com/2020/06/do-better-than-critical-race-theory/

And then I wonder if this is right, it's shocking, but how come they weren't aware?

Possibly because many people are struggling themselves and are distracted by their own difficulties?

How many people are aware of the difficulties and barriers and difficulties faced by people different to them? I honestly believe that unless you are affected, or have a close personal connection with someone else affected, then you aren't that aware and don't have an understanding of what it's like.

One thing I'm struggling to understand is how come so many people seem not to have been aware of racism and structural racism until now?

And then I wonder if this is right, it's shocking, but how come they weren't aware?

None of this requires long discussions about whether systemic racism is a thing or accusing people of white fragility, and all point to real policy directions.

How is one to address these questions without recognising the institutional racism acted out through law enforcement practices, welfare provision and urbwn policies which make Black people disproportionately vulnerable to violence? My response was directly aimed at an argument that instead of policy solutions and structural changes Black people should consider changing their mindset.

Female black mother. Triple whammy on expectations of being everyone's support human.

Venting anonymously on MN is good.

Justifiable anger noted.

So they don’t help black women because of men?
Clearly not what I said. It's about the patriarchy.
I also have a job and children, I spend a lot of time supporting women of all types. I'm happy to engage but if you are just going to write me off as racist, and not even try to understand what I'm saying, then its not worth my time to post.

@PurpleButterflyAway of course not, but saying anger doesn't lead to change completely dismisses the history of western feminism but also a lot of liberation and independence movements across the world. Why as White feminists were are more concerned about being alienated than with our complicity in alienating others through racism? It's Western feminism that has not been inclusive to women of colour, not the other way around.

It's possible that some sort of personal change in GF's life might have changed his fate. Not much any of us can do about that unless we knew him.

If we want to talk about policing in the US , there is I think a fairly clear set of questions to ask that would suggest a direction. One is what ties together victims of police violence - we know that it is that they live in poor neighbourhoods. We also know that black men are somewhat more likely to be victims - is this because the are more likely to be poor, or is there an additional effect beyond that - that would be useful to know in addressing racism specifically. Convincing the police not to be racist is a different task than dealing with the demographics of poverty.

We could also ask, why are the police being violent in poor neighbourhoods specifically? Why are there poor people? Why are the police being taught these models of policing rather than following models that are not so conflict based and militarised.

None of this requires long discussions about whether systemic racism is a thing or accusing people of white fragility, and all point to real policy directions.