Your age is your age, your sex is your sex. Neither can be changed.

"Just like if a 40 year old biological male demanded to be allowed in to a children’s play centre because he “feels” that he is 10 years old and therefore should be accepted as a child. Yet everyone can see he is not a child; he is a grown, adult man. His mature, adult body is evidence that he is not a child. Yet he is demanding others accept that he is a child because he “feels” he is a child and should be treated as such.
Should he be accepted as a child due to him “feeling” he is a child or do we accept the scientific and biological evidence, as well as what others can clearly see; that he is NOT a child and cannot be allowed in to children’s spaces."
I honestly think this will be next. If you think I'm talking rubbish, I never thought I'd fear for my job after saying." women don't have penises" on twitter

[quote Dadaist]@Winesalot the point is it isn’t a simple fact like how long you’ve been on the earth - it’s complex with regard to what counts as ‘male’ or ‘female’ when people may be both or neither.
And overarching that is that gender goes way beyond ‘sex’ - so that regardless of your genitals - if you live life as a man or as a woman you will experience life differently. You will be treated differently. But it’s not your genitalia-(most people won’t get to to see that) it’s how you are raised, and how you internalise and externalise your sexual identity - and that is gender. That will determine how you are treated.[/quote]
Women are harassed, physically attacked and paid less REGARDLESS of how they act. You are suggesting that if women "express their gender" in certain ways then we will be treated differently? In that case, how can we express it in a way that gives us equal standing, equity and safety? Too bad we didn't think of that 20,000 years ago.
And yes, for the OP, biological sex is as immutable as age, as immutable as eye color.

Interesting dadaist. I would say that my biology has caused me so many more problems than whether I identify as feminine or masculine. Even down to sick leave for incredible PmT and being fired while pregnant.

These has nothing at all to do with Gender. And my gnc friend who is very masculine would agree although her experiences are very different . But nothing to do with how she presents. She was brought up to be non-conforming and did most things a male would do.

Dadaist everyone has a sex. Everyone. Even in execptionally rare occourances of mosaicism, the individual involved will be male, or female.

No one is none, or both.

I agree gender is completely different to sex. The confusion occours when people refer to genders as male or female then start to believe personality traits influence their sex.

Neither your sex or age are influenced by your personality. How this becomes a debate is beyond me

But using that logistic... a 25yo who has a learning disability which means they have the mental age of a 7yo. Should we then turn around and say.. but there 25 and therefore must act 25?

That's not using the 'logistic' in the OP . A 25yo is a 25yo whatever their mental capacity. Their birth certificate or passport shouldn't be altered because they have a learning difficulty. There should of course still be different expectations of their behaviour because of their learning disability, but that has no effect on their legal age.

But it’s not your genitalia-(most people won’t get to to see that) it’s how you are raised, and how you internalise and externalise your sexual identity - and that is gender. That will determine how you are treated

The babies aborted and the baby girls dumped on trash heaps to die after birth never get to Express their gender. One might make the assumption here that their sex is what got them treated this way?

"delusional wish"

I think your analogy touches on something very important - a refusal to face and accept the "facts of life". A delusional with to deny reality. And a demand that others' join in.

@Winesalot the point is it isn’t a simple fact like how long you’ve been on the earth - it’s complex with regard to what counts as ‘male’ or ‘female’ when people may be both or neither.
And overarching that is that gender goes way beyond ‘sex’ - so that regardless of your genitals - if you live life as a man or as a woman you will experience life differently. You will be treated differently. But it’s not your genitalia-(most people won’t get to to see that) it’s how you are raised, and how you internalise and externalise your sexual identity - and that is gender. That will determine how you are treated.

people always look for ways to play fast and lose dont they!

I think it’s a shame men and women can’t be as masculine or as feminine as they like ...... without feeling the need to be defined as man or woman.

I can cope with the first part. Fill your boots: be as 'masculine' or 'feminine' as you wish (it's all gender bollocks), whatever your sex.

However, there's an absolute necessity for people to be defined as men or women. If there are no men and — more importantly to this debate – no women, where does that leave women's rights, women's sport, women's anything?

Sorry dadaist. I was asking ferventfox. Apologies.

A 25 yo with a mental age of 7 is not the same as a 7 yo child. They may have similar intellectual capacity, but their emotional and physical maturity will be different and they will have very different life experiences.

For example, while a child can never legally or morally consent to sex, that's not necessarily true for intellectually handicapped adults, especially if their partner is of similar intellectual capability.

A 25yo with the mental capacity of a 7yo is not treated like a 7yo. The 25 yo would not attend primary school or Brownies or be allowed into children's spaces without a DBS check.

A 25yo would not be able to compete in under-10s sport.

@FerventFox But a 25yo with the mental age of a 7yo is not the same as a 25yo saying they "identify" as a 7yo i.e. a person with typical psychological abilities expected of a 25yo saying that they just have this intangible feeling that they are really a 7yo and wish to be treated as such.

If an adult has the mental age of a 7yo, we're not actually saying they have a 7yo's brain, are we? We're saying they have psychological abilities comparative to a typical 7yo.

Dadaist

I don't think there is confusion here. Please DO NOT bring people with DSDs into a discussion to prove 'being assigned' at birth. You do realise that with modern medicine, even people with differences have their sex reliably categorised.

Could you please clarify how your example works? I am not sure how a person with a disability with a transgender person is comparable, but I am happy to listen.

And still it would be ridiculous to alter official records according to one's "age identity". A functioning society needs records to be kept in an orderly and fixed manner; it cannot be arbitrary and individual for a variety of reasons

And like with changing sex markers on official documents, can you imagine the health impacts of a false age.

All the pregnancy tests not done on women because they decided to identify as someone older and as 60 year olds dont get pregnant pregnancy was missed.

Or someone identified as younger and because now the menopause is now recorded as happening between the ages of say 25 and 50 someone whos 26 and menopausal might not think to seek help .

It's as bonkers and dangerous as everything else.

Some people jusy need to be told NO. And learn to deal with it

Yes, intersex conditions are not at all the same thing as gender dysphoria.

Taking the idea further, if we can arbitrarily change our sex and d.o.b., how about species? Can I self-identify as a rare orchid and go and live rent-free and unchallenged in a wood or a field somewhere in a SSSI?

If not, why not?

No confusion between sex and gender her Dadaist but you seem very confused between medical disorders and being transgender.

While official age should not be changed under any circumstances, I find "age identity" far more convincing than "gender identity". Because "age identity" is not just about feelings; some people's bodies simply are in a younger or older condition, and they look it.

I've seen 30 year old who look 50, and vice versa.

Healthy/unhealthy lifestyles and eating habits, genes, environment, all these can influence our rate of ageing and appearance.

That's why we are generally uncertain when asked to guess someone's age.

We're never uncertain about someone's sex; we don't even have to guess.

And still it would be ridiculous to alter official records according to one's "age identity". A functioning society needs records to be kept in an orderly and fixed manner; it cannot be arbitrary and individual for a variety of reasons.

Ooh - @FerventFox - are you saying that being trans is comparable to having a learning disability? Because, two can play at your game Fox.

But using that logistic... a 25yo who has a learning disability which means they have the mental age of a 7yo. Should we then turn around and say.. but there 25 and therefore must act 25? Should be say they must go and get a full time job and remove all 24/7 support because they are BIOLOGICALLY 25? Or do we accept that mentally they are not 25 and therefore are treated in a appropriate way to match their mental age? Because there mental age is not quantifiable or tangible we just accept that it does happen to some people due to things outside their control. But if we cannot accept or consider anything that is not physically quantifiable or tangible then we should not be accepting that adults with severe learning disabilities can have a mental age younger then their physical age and therefore you surely belive jts all a act to get support, or not have to work, or get access to funding and retreats etc etc......

But the reality of their sex, recorded by a clinician after 'a glance at their genitalia for a few seconds' will have an impact on their life whether they like it or not!

Well that’s just it. I wear jeans and t-shirts every day. No make up. And yet my sex has impacted every aspect of my life from my income to what behaviour’s expected from me in the office to how often I get shouted at on the street.

Dadaist

I agree that people should be as masculine or feminine as they wish regardless of the reality of their biological sex.

But the reality of their sex, recorded by a clinician after 'a glance at their genitalia for a few seconds' will have an impact on their life whether they like it or not!