Is it fair to absolve my mother and, instead, blame men as a class?

'It is not a good idea at a wider level to exonerate people because of their past. That could bleed into the law and the idea that male rapists could use any kind of childhood difficulty as a defence is not a good place to go.

Perhaps forgiveness would be a better concept to apply than exoneration?'

This way lies restorative justice.

Inappropriate with many types of offence especially ones with a relationship/ power dynamic.

If you Google you will find that there are groups pushing for this including in sex offences.

Sex offences are very serious often with long term impact. In most cases the victim knows the perpetrator.

It would be handy if victims could say I forgive you job done. But these things should be treated as the serious crimes they are.

It’s a really interesting thought and I hear you.

I’m NC with my mother, her MH is too much for me and she is one of the most toxic people I know. I had a dreadful childhood with her.

But I know her MH absolutely stems from being raped over a number of years along side her sister in care homes as a child. Her sister is killing her self by starving herself and drinking to the point she has liver failure shr too is NC with her kids . I didn’t have the mother I should have had as a child and because of that it impacted my life well in to my late 20s.

I’ve seen a hideous facebook page that was for pedophiles today with tens of thousands of likes on it, it’s on the news about grooming gangs and celebrities getting pulled in by the FBI for sex trafficking, women getting absolutely battered by TRA so yes, I’m actually starting to see men as class a big issue.

Sorry for what you’ve been through

It is not a good idea at a wider level to exonerate people because of their past. That could bleed into the law and the idea that male rapists could use any kind of childhood difficulty as a defence is not a good place to go.

Perhaps forgiveness would be a better concept to apply than exoneration?

It makes perfect sense to blame the ruling class for the rules they made that oppress women.They could have stopped individually and collectively at any time over the last several thousand years and instead chose to glorify male violence instead.

I think that overstates the control the majority of individuals have over society. I see it more as a big, unfortunate Ouija session, albeit with a minority of hands exerting more control on the planchette. I don't mean to say any particular individual is incapable of influencing society but I don't think the outcome is merely the linear sum of every individual's realised intentions, multiplied by their status.

No, "men as a class" is an abstraction, something that you could, for example, make a statistical statement about.

It makes perfect sense to blame the ruling class for the rules they made that oppress women.
They could have stopped individually and collectively at any time over the last several thousand years and instead chose to glorify male violence instead. Why shouldn't the ruling class own the rules they make?

No, "men as a class" is an abstraction, something that you could, for example, make a statistical statement about.

You can't blame men as a class for a specific action. That's not what blame is. In fact I think that blame as such is not a very useful emotion, it's a way of discharging a certain amount of emotional pain, but it's not really the best way because it is so prone to the kinds of falsities you are trying to justify here - you have to find someone to pin it on, or you have to shift it from places that cause more pain. An abstract entity like men as a class seems ideal, as it doesn't seem to impact anyone real, but it stops you from seeing what's really happened and it also could well end up compromising your ability to have good relationships with individual, real men.

I think what you are really trying to get at with your mum is thinking about the extent to which she is really culpable for her actions. Often when any of us do bad things, we have only limited culpability - things really do get in the way of people being their best selves and making the best choices. Lack of understanding, lack of good role models, emotional distress, some sort of compromised self-control or decision making, fear, illness, addiction. You could go on and on.

It sounds like your mom had a hard time, and all kinds of barriers to doing what she ought to have, and maybe should have. It's even possible that at by certain point in her life, addiction meant she had no real ability to make choices - drugs can sometimes have that effect, destroying our capacity for choice. In most cases though, people do bear some responsibility for choices they made along the line, most of us have a fair amount of responsibility most of the time. Maybe only rarely do we make a perfectly informed, willed choice to do evil because we want to and decide to in free way.

Ultimately, we can't know how much at fault others are, we may guess, but that's what it is. Often we don't even know with regard to our own self. If you can let go of the need to figure it out, it's very healing. You may or may not be able to have a relationship with the person at that point, if you can, that's great, sometimes there has been too much damage.

A complex question

OP I totally get where you're coming from and it's entirely up to you how you deal with and feel about your personal situation

Two things your post made me think

It is not a good idea at a wider level to exonerate people because of their past. That could bleed into the law and the idea that male rapists could use any kind of childhood difficulty as a defence is not a good place to go. Because any understanding for the type of situation you describe would be turned to the benefit of men

It also made me think of a poster who had worked in an in patient facility for teenage girls with severe mental health issues. When she spoke to them she realised that had all endured horrific sexual abuse. But that was never acknowledged. The damage that is done by men as a class (namalt) is something that society simply does not want to face up to.

I am glad that you have come to terms with what happened and have a good relationship with your mum.

You can contextualised your mother's abuse of you. That's helpful, so long as your compassion for your mother isn't obstructing your right to have and feel anger at your abusive childhood, and also at your mum.

Rape culture clearly played a role in your mum's dysfunction. Absolutely you can see that and feel anger about it. Rape culture is part of patriarchy.

But it's ok to be angry with your mum too. You were a child; you were doubly harmed. By rape culture, and by your mum.

Compassion is big enough for both feelings - anger at your mum for what she did to you, and an understanding of, and rage at, the misogyny that shaped her.

Sorry if in reviving this thread I have put the OP in the position of having her mother slagged off by people who seem to think victims of abuse should somehow remain saintly and the perfect mother through out.

Its as dumb as saying someone who suffered a serious illness and so wasn't able to properly care for their daughter is some sort of demon.

In an ideal world - of course it would be great if every mother was perfect.

OP's mother has survived trauma and come out the other side.

So Herja hope both you and your mum can keep strong and maybe each of you can join a survivors support group where people certainly would not sit on their high horse and pass judgement.

I hold men responsible for male violence.
That is what your mother and my mother suffered from.
I hold my mother responsible for the choices she made as an adult.
Both good and bad.

I totally get what you're saying OP.

I blame men as a class for my childhood.

I absolutely understand your logic. And you're clear about men "as a class" a category. It's about living in patriarchy. All men benefit to a greater or lesser extent from the patriarchal structure of our society: a structure of power which is hierarchical, and places men as a class or category at the centre, as the only fully human half of the species, and relegates women , as a class or category, to the lower "non-male" not-quite-fully human position.

It's a difficult dangerous realisation, which most people (men & women, see the PP on this thread for example) can't quite cope with.

Most feminists understand what you're saying though.

It’s just easier to blame big bad scary shadowy anonymous “men” than it is to digest the fact that your own mother neglected and abused you. That the one person in your life who should have loved and protected you, actually could not stand you and repeatedly hurt you. It’s hard to accept it because you have to struggle with feeling unwanted, unloved and all the psychic damage of parental abuse. So you’ve given mum a get out of jail free card and she gets to have a relationship with her adult daughter that she did nothing to earn or deserve.

No it’s not fair to blame men for your mothers childhood neglect and abuse of you. It’s not different from people blaming the mother of a serial killer for raising a monster. Your mother still had a choice and she chose to neglect and abuse you.

Many many women have lived horrific lives but do not neglect and abuse their children.

You misunderstand. man-hating is a slur some people use against women who speak up for women's rights and pointing out that with live in a patriarchy.

We need a few more men to be called man-hating because through their casual talk and actions every day it could appear they despise women.

Isn't 'man-hating' difficult to keep up all the time ? It sounds draining. Maybe, sometimes you're really into it and on other days not really that bothered ?

Asking for a friend.

Beautiful3 - that's really great that you had the will power and self esteem to keep your self safe.

But we are all different. OP is not you. You she has found a way of dealing with the situation.

Have you no thought that your comment could be really damaging to her.

Its one thing someone say I can run fast why didn't you.

Totally another to say I'm a brilliant well thought out survivor why aren't you.

@Herja - keep on with what seems true to you.

Many of us are "man hating" feminists without having had to endure what you did.

Good luck to you and your mum.

That's not right. I was abused by a family member too. I didn't choose drugs, which were offered to me at one point. Instead I worked hard to get away. I have children and I have never mistreated them. You cannot blame others for your own actions. Otherwise you're saying its not peoples fault who go on to abuse their own children, because someone did it to them?! Better support needs to be given on the nhs e.g. counselling on a long term basis. Including the homeless. Many homeless people have mental health/drug problems. They cannot access a counsellor or rehab, because they have no fixed address. But responsibility has to remain with every individual.

I find some of the earlier comments incredible harsh and lacking empathy.

I think it is brilliant that despite what happened to you as a young child you have not sort to excuse the abusers but seen the pattern between your experience and your mother's.

And to have a relationship with her is also really positive.

I dont want to probe into your family more than you want, but for instance there is no reference to your father. Why wasn't he protecting you. And if he was an absent father that for me just compounds the fact that men are always excused.

Its not just the individual men who abused your mother, but the fact that the system wasn't there to support her.

And quite honestly if you have found a way to live with your early experiences and remain in contact with your mother, just really shows strength.

And even if you didn't blame all men (the patriarchy) you have ever right to not trust any of them or it.

Women survivors are under no obligation to indulge in the NAM. Let the men who stood back and do nothing stand up and start doing something.

Oh yes - and please dont go for therapy. Most therapy is about trying to stop people who have every right to feel angry that they shouldn't and so how making them responsible for what others did to them.

And therapy like other professions is seeped with patriachal values.

It may be (after lockdown) that you can find a survivors group that you could join if you feel you want to be able to talk more about your early life.

More strength to you!

Difficult question. I think if you have been able to forgive your mother, it's because you decided to do so to make peace with what happened in your childhood. That can be a very liberating and healing experience.

And unlike PP, I think getting there by rationalising your mother's behaviour and establishing as its root cause the damage done to her psyche and body by men, in a society dominated by many of the same men who uphold and defend a system which enables themselves and their fellow men to abuse women and girls, is a perfectly logical thought process.

And by specifically talking about "men as a class" you have made perfectly clear that you are not blaming every individual man for your mother's abuse. In recognising (and eventually addressing) what allows such horrific abuse to happen, class-based analysis is an important tool. That you have also found it useful in resolving a painful personal issue is really good to hear.

You don't need to blame anyone. It's ok to just not know who or what is responsible. You are allowed to forgive someone without having to explain why. This does not mean you don't protect yourself from harm or address wrong behaviour just that you don't carry resentment around with you over what happened in the past. You are allowed to heal.

interested IN
Apologies, finding words is not my forte today.

I’m with you on this. Blame men as a class.

The previous replies are basically “not all men are like that”.

Yeah but we have a system, led by men, that means your mother was abused by people who thought they could get away with it (and probably did) and that their sexual desires were more important than hers. If she’d reported it, would she have had an easy time through the courts? With judges who still think that 13 year olds can “seduce” old men?

Your mother is the product of a terrible system. Drug addicts need help, and in her case the cause is obvious. It is good of you to forgive her as it’s easy to blame people coping with trauma by using drugs.

And I’m sorry that this victimisation was passed on to you.