Women and their role in trans right activism

When I look at older women in the public eye aggressively promoting TWAW, l think there's also a fear of being "Karen"ed and that if they expressed any caution or criticism, it would speed the journey to irrelevancy that happens to women once they hit 40. I can think of a couple of examples in Ireland who I won't name. Media and the arts are very unstable career areas as well as youth-oriented. It explains it for me, but doesn't excuse it, because they have made it even harder for those further down the food chain to speak out.

@NonnyMouse1337 I agree with every single word. You're right. It's cowardly and simply outsourcing thinking and moral authority to a cultish way of thinking rather than addressing the issue from the ground up. The thought-terminating slogans. Spot on!

@PheonixBuchanan I loathe that kind of toxic niceness. It's almost a competitive sport these days amongst certain kinds of women. I find it really oppressive, and often insincere, used to mask a refusal to engage with certain truths or a fragile sense of self.

@dayoftheclownfish "Questioning transgenderism means you have to recognise and accept the limits of our sexed bodies."

This is spot on. I grew up being told I could "be anything" by my mother, never encountered any sexism until my first job and even then it was indirect. It wasn't until I had kids did I accept the 'limit of our sexed bodies' and the impact it's had on my lived experience from digestion/stomach issues every fucking month when I have my period to the absolute wave of infections, low immune system etc I suffered during and after pregnancy.

The idea that someone can put on a fucking dress and claim they've had the same experience as me is not only infuriating it's downright offensive.

I have a friend who has sadly bought into the ideology hook, line and sinker. I'd go so far as to call her a TRA. (We actively avoid this subject!) In addition to being on the left and "progressive", she falls into the category of being exceedingly kind, genuinely a very kind and caring person. I think as the last few years have gone by she has bought into the narrative of the Most Oppressed TM, and she hasn't critically engaged with it at all. It's just Be Kind.

Most of the time when they write about feminism they are referring to the commercially packaged sex positive empowerment is better than power feminism created by the backlash.
Certainly women have always known that men will not power share unless they are prioritized. That's what prompted the backlash. That lesson is on display everywhere we look. So ambitious women go along to get along just as they were taught to do and then we are all in the soup.

I get that. It's true, of course. But so much support for a movement that offers women nothing and has the potential to disrupt every woman's life? It still baffles me.

It does offer those women something though. It makes them feel like they are very good people, kind and inclusive and magnanimous. It buys them social currency and approval. It's like making sure your clothes are always in tune with the latest fashion.... Keeping up with social justice trends.

It's easy to say the right things or to be seen as being on the right side. Genuinely trying to be good and fair and sticking to your principles is actually quite hard, and can leave you in the minority. When everyone is blindly going in one direction, it takes a lot of courage to stand or turn the other way and say 'No I won't do that, it's not right.' Most people don't have that kind of courage, even if they know what's going on around them is wrong. The vast majority of cheerleaders and supporters of trans ideology have spent little to no time critically analysing the reasons for their stance. It's an emotive position, not a rational one. Hence the thought terminating slogans. Some are genuine believers and fanatics, but most just go along for the ride as it's easier, seems cooler and promises that you'll be 'on the right side of history'. What's not to like about that?

Like most people, women are capable of not giving a shit about issues that they know will not directly affect them. Most of the supporters of trans ideology know on some level that they won't have to face the consequences of their performative righteousness.

I get that. It's true, of course. But so much support for a movement that offers women nothing and has the potential to disrupt every woman's life? It still baffles me.

Interesting essay on this subject, written last year, by Oxford academic Michael Biggs at
quillette.com/2019/08/01/how-feminism-paved-the-way-for-transgenderism/

I bridled at the goady title 'How feminism paved the way for transgenderism'. I'd have said it was individual women seeing a personal advantage. But then, why Teresa May, with nothing to gain?

When I read "Virtually the entire feminist establishment has embraced transgenderism" I almost yelled "Not true!" out loud. But, come to think of it, all the passionately pro-women (ie gender-critical) groups I can think of have sprung up in response to the current threat...

I know the trans movement works on people's sympathy for those who present themselves as underdogs - and woman are suckers for a sob story. And their piggy-backing on the gay rights movement has won support from liberals who are terrified of being found "on the wrong side of history".

Plus, it's now become dangerous to question the trans ideology. Women and ethical men have lost their jobs, been arrested and faced violence and death threats.

But even so - why have women been so zealous in undermining other women? From Biggs's essay:

Let us list the major players in Britain. Former Prime Minister Theresa May announced that “being trans is not a mental illness.” “As an ardent, passionate feminist,” Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland, wants to eliminate sex segregation.
Conservative MP Maria Miller headed the Committee for Women and Equalities, a select committee of the House of Commons, which proposed reforming the Gender Recognition Act to make it easier for people to change their legal sex; she derided critics of this proposal as “women who purport to be feminists.”
Dawn Butler, Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities in the Labour Party, insists that “trans women are women” and arranged for them to enter the party’s all-women’s shortlists for parliamentary seats.
Ruth Hunt transformed Stonewall from a charity that campaigned for homosexual rights to one devoted to transgender rights, even at the expense of lesbians. Mermaids, which advocates for the transgendering of children, is run by Susie Green. Polly Carmichael, director of the NHS Gender Identity Development Service, lowered the age at which puberty-blocking drugs could be administered to children who identify as trans—now disproportionately girls. Katharine Viner is chief executive of the Guardian newspaper which has championed the transgender cause for many years.

Virtually the entire feminist establishment has embraced transgenderism, from celebrated feminist Members of Parliament like Jess Phillips (Labour Party) and Mhairi Black (Scottish National Party) to organizations like the Fawcett Society, Engender (the feminist group funded by the Scottish government), the Women’s Equality Party, and Women’s Aid.
Transgender doctrines are enforced by the burgeoning diversity-industrial complex which was created by feminists and is disproportionately staffed by women.
It was a woman employed as a university Equality Projects Officer who started a petition to transfer a violent transwoman to a women’s prison; the petition was so successful that it persuaded the government to divide prisons by gender identity rather than sex.

The more I read, the more I unwillingly saw his point. It's worth reading the whole essay.

Saying you don't mind penises in your toilets just buys you a bit of currency with your progressive male pals, I think.

Totally agree that if this whole thing were to blow up tomorrow, it would be the women who come off worse, because it's the women who will be blamed (as mothers) for the transing of children.

Women are human beings. Therefore they will exhibit the full range of human behaviour. Women can be friendly, kind, cruel, empathetic, vindictive, brave, cunning, manipulative, cooperative, selfish, clever, downright stupid, etc.

I don't think excuses should be made for women, such as internalising patriarchy, they have no choice but to act that way out of self preservation or whatever. It's infantilising and absolves women from taking responsibility for their actions and facing the consequences of their decisions.

Like most people, women are capable of not giving a shit about issues that they know will not directly affect them. Most of the supporters of trans ideology know on some level that they won't have to face the consequences of their performative righteousness. That's why women who support trans privilege activists keep saying things like 'Well I don't mind trans women in toilets with me.' and statements like that. It's entirely self centered. They don't give a flying fuck about how some other woman feels. All they care about is showing off how little it bothers them and because it won't impact them in any way, then it's all good. Their pals are trans and lovely people, dontcha know?

They will never be a woman from a deprived background who ends up in jail. Or a woman who has been severely abused and traumatised and needs a female counsellor. Some have a very naive view of the world and fall for manipulative sob stories without applying any critical thinking.

I don't think it's particularly mysterious as to why women support such an ideology. They either know it won't affect them or they think it won't affect them, and don't care beyond that. With time and experience, some might realise they were wrong and change their minds. Others won't. That's just how human beings roll, unfortunately.

I agree with so many of the points, especially @dayoftheclownfish. I've also pondered a lot about the middle-aged women jumping on the TWAW, who are old and experienced enough to know better. I've come to the conclusion that many of them are too lazy, too scared or too stupid to fully engaged their critical thinking skills, plus the rewards for brainlessly saying the 'right' thing are a huge disincentive for thinking straight.

Could also be laziness - retweet, sending thoughts and prayers, OMG that’s terrible. Herd mentality. Internet algorithms feed you what you look at. If you only vaguely interact with issues you won’t see much of the opposing views. It’s not working for the movement but it is also not protesting it.

Climate change used to be fringe. Scoffed at, ignored, considered to be the home of tin foil hat wearing odd balls by the vast majority. Times change. The movement has not, the facts have not, it’s public acceptance and interest that has changed the narrative.

Our job is harder, because it’s not just LOOK AT THIS BAD THING, it’s saying um those carefully curated images and stories that made you feel very sorry for people, well it’s part of this thing, yes I know it seems perfectly reasonable, bear with me, doing these things that don’t initially seem terrible actually results in the fundamental dismantling of safeguarding and sex based rights. Ideally without frothing at the mouth yelling that bearded guy could be bathing your mum.

@CuntAmongstThePigeons " Is there a self protection mechanism to not accept how much society hates women which along with the female socialization of always looking out for everyone else first means young women struggle to see/accept the ways in which trans activists demands will disadvantage women's rights?"

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I was discussing this with DH the other day, and I said to him that the trouble with these women is that they are completely naive and don't really understand what many men are like. DH completely agreed.

Genderism is cult-like in that it won't tolerate any dissent and it makes its believers feel both persecuted and special. That kind of emotive thinking can appeal to women as well as men.

Did you think homophobia was an exclusively male character flaw?

I gather Dworkin has relevant insights in Right Wing Women, but as my copy is currently glaring balefully at me from halfway down the primary to-read pile I can't confirm.

A useful term I came across a while back is "patriarchy-brain". This phenomenon is found in both sexes; it's installed in all of us (with varying degrees of success) through the socialisation of children; and it takes a hell of a lot of painful unpicking, which is difficult because most people deny it's there.

As for white supremacists - they don't need black people to buy into it because they don't technically need black people full stop. Whereas male-supremacist men still need a domestic appliance person to do the cooking and cleaning and baby making and performative wank-sockery.

This is the post I just finished writing when your other thread was banished. It won't quite have context as I was replying to someone but it still fits with the thread.

Many/most? of the women/female people who are very vocally invested appear to me to gain some kind of reward from it whether that be personal gratification or career orientated - sometimes both.

Arguably the same could be said about the high number of vocal 'beardy bro's' we all know so well. However the main difference I see between the women and the men is that most of the time it's low effort, low cost noise for the men. A lot of them have just found a way to acceptably shit on demographics of women they don't like. The women often seem to have more at stake.

Using the trans kids phenomenon as an example.

If the bubble completely burst tomorrow I can guarantee the women who have been vocally and professionally invested in gender ideology will end up losing a lot more than many male counterparts who will likely just reverse ferret and slink off.

I'm thinking of Polly Carmichael, Susie Green, the former and current heads of Stonewall, various academics, dozens of trans kids 'stage mothers', celebrity women like Jameela Jamil.

I do think a lot of women, who whilst complicit, but by no means totally responsible will be left holding the can and shouldering the blame whilst men like Jolyon Maugham, Owen Jones, Hbomberguy, the Penis News crew will probably slink off to start afresh relatively unscathed.

@dayoftheclownfish

You have articulated a lot of what I feel! Great points, especially the third, I've found it hard to get that straight in my head. It feels strange to fight from a point that women are just as good as men and can be/do anything they can (within reason) but then turn around and find yourself having to define and defend the dividing line. Strange times! I feel it would all be ok women and their rights weren't being redefined. There is a way for everyone to be equal but not the same.

Also, after reading Jessica Taylor's article on why grooming is hard to spotvictimfocusblog.com/2020/06/30/dr-jessica-taylor-explains-the-real-reasons-why-you-cant-spot-grooming-behaviour/

I would call this social manipulation. I was reminded of someone who went on a management course and came back with the realisation that people like to be manipulated, they do not like to be told straight. They will do things for your that they would not do if you were more straightforward in your approach.

It makes them feel good. Maybe they are being given a sense of purpose?

Maybe men and women fall for different sorts of manipulation?

I'm 30 and it's really jarring to disagree on this one point when you see yourself as liberal and caring and 'better' than right wingers, conservatives and patriarchal religions. I sort of bought into pretty much everything guardian but have never agreed that TWAW in the legal/definitive sense and it feels so strange. I think women can take that position as it's aligned with other positions such as not being homophobic, racist, sexist and xenophobic etc.
I volunteered, campaigned and fundraised for Amnesty for years when I was younger and it was a huge shock when they basically turned round and shrugged 'men gonna rape' as their position on women's concerns about their rights. That gave me even more courage in my conviction.

First of all, thank you for this eloquent post, I have been wondering about this myself. Some TWAW women of my acquaintance have been truly awful to other women over this issue. I think it’s actually quite complicated.
A lot of it could be projection. Women who are actually disturbed/disgusted by male femininity but cannot admit to it and feel they have to force themselves to get over it.

Second, socialisation and lifelong political commitments. Imagine you have always fought for the underdog, stood up for ‘what’s right’, built your identity around leftist politics - it takes guts to say ‘hang on a second, this may be an oppressed minority but what they are demanding is simply unreasonable’.

Third, you have spent all your life conditioning yourself to think that ‘women can do anything’. This is communicated in pop culture (female action heroes who somehow manage to beat up men twice their size, for example) and feminist activism. Any failures you have internalised as your own fault, not structural disadvantage. Questioning transgenderism means you have to recognise and accept the limits of our sexed bodies. This is hard, especially given the constant libfem propaganda that denies difference and fails to acknowledge that women ARE different but just as human as men.

That would be my take on it. And for some women it’s a convenient way to get rid of rivals or other women they envy. None of us are saints,

I don't know. It is like when women enable abuse. For some reason they do not understand or see the consequences of what they are doing.

Some people do not understand unless they have direct experience.

I think this is being manipulated in the 'it is just like' arguments where it is related to something easier to understand where that person may have direct experience.

I think there’s also a lot of “but my lovely TW friend” going on as well