12 yr old DD. Gender Dysphoria, sudden announcement

I can remember the case of Breck Bednar who was communicating with a man who subsequently killed him. The mother took the phone away and his murderer just sent him a new one through the post which the mother knew nothing about.

Id be very nervous about taking all screens away and the situation suddenly ramping up. I know Mumsnet considers looking at teenage children’s phones an infringement of privacy but I’d rather the child keep the phone and I monitor the content than I would remove it.

Could you say no phones after a certain time and put some rules in place. It’s so difficult and. Just have no idea anymore how we keep these kids safe if they’re determined to put themselves in harms way. Communication has to remain open.

She's growing up, she will try out ideas that are different to the family norms

And she is likely experiencing a lot of turmoil with growing up, changing bodies and such

I am more than a little concerned by the phrase " some anxiety at school "

What she might need from you now could be unconditional love and support . Help her to do as much as possible of what she wants to do ( do , not expect others to do !)

But some control of the phone is needed

I'll speak from the experience of someone who was "confused" at one point about gender. (Now I no longer believe in gender. I view it as the same as religion, as in, it's clearly a belief that other people hold strongly, but not something I believe in).

If you can manage it I would ask her if she thinks everyone has or needs an internal feeling of "gender".
I think a lot of gender talk can be way too internally focused "do I FEEL like this or FEEL like that". You dont need to feel like anything.

Does she have hobbies and things going on other than talking to teens about gender?

The thing that shook me out of gender confusion was just saying fuck it to the whole thing. I asked myself how different an S in front of HE really is to me.
If I truly believe that men and women can have any kind of personality and expression (which I do), then surely that's all it came down to.

I hope some of this made sense.
I think it must be tough for your kid at the moment. Especially at a time when there seems to be so much push to support trans kids that a lesbian kid might feel more accepted if they ID as a man.

Sadly you're right to be wary of counsellors atm OP. What we need is a group of mental health professionals to look at these children from the POV of "what is driving these children to hold the false belief that they are the opposite sex, and how can we stop them believing that and reconnect them to reality? ". Same as we do when people have any other false belief, like hearing things that aren't there. But crazily, any attempt to approach things from that POV is seen as "convertion therapy". It's absolutely mental.

OP I've just read my post back and read quickly it could sound like I'm talking about you. I'm definitely not! I'm thinking of parents who enthusiastically jump on the trans idea so young with no regards for the consequences

Just wanted to clarify

How on gods earth can you be 5 and confused about your gender identity?!! It has to be all about the parents, surely

It's so fucked up and wrong.

Sapphos I'm again agreeing with more you've said here. It's good to know our common ground is ensuring our girls know being a lesbian is fine, you don't need to look for an alternative "way to be".

I've spent a lot of time talking about all sorts of issues with my girls.
They know that they can love who they want, dress however they want and that they are beautiful as they are and don't need to change a thing.
I was very aware that instilling body confidence was massively important. We all knew kids at schools with issues.

Yes op I'd remove social media. She shouldn't have most of those platforms pre 13 anyway

Do not buy her Diva or any Sarah Waters books or DVDs!! They are inappropiate for a child.

I was pointing out that the Proud Trust start from age 11, Sapphos, so your surprise at OPs daughter being 12 is strange, especially as you initially recommended Allsorts, who start from age FIVE.

I'm still shocked that a child, presumably still in year 7, has come out as a lesbian, moved on to being trans, has access to LGBTQ message forums and is already talking about binders. She's barely old enough for a bra.

What other age appropriate interests does she have Op? Is she sporty? Musical? The cinemas will be opening soon. Sounds like she needs to spend some time just being 12.

I'm so sorry you are going through all this and yes sappho I'm afraid this has gone viral among young teenage girls. This is exactly what we have all been banging on about. I'm glad, sappho that you are not happy about this.

And you are quite right. OP's DD needs to spend some time being 12 - even if that means just sitting with intense feelings of discomfort at the idea and fact of puberty. You could argue that the definition of adolescence is a period of alienation from one's own body - after all you are going to lose the only body you have ever known and have it replaced with one that's very foreign to you and not fit for purpose when you are only 12. No 12 year old needs breasts or periods - but that is what nature does. And we have to help our girls adjust to them and live with the weirdness and discomfort and alienation until their minds catch up with their bodies.

We also need to help girls deal with the weirdness from other people (men) who respond to those new bodies very differently and very inappropriately. Turning 12 is the on-switch for all dodgy men everywhere - all girls are familiar with the new and unwanted attention and abuse they get from men. What could be more natural than to reject the body that attracts this attention? And yet what could be more damaging in the long run.

And OP I would be less worried about putting this to your DD in terms of "risk" and more putting the issues to her in terms of her natural development towards teenage years and then adulthood. What she is going through is entirely natural for an adolescent girl.

Just as she no longer reads baby and toddler books or watches CBEEBIES, she is now going through another change phase. Nature is doing this and nature doesn't give her the opportunity to be a boy. It only allows her to be a girl but she can be any sort of girl she likes. No girl enjoys adolescence but almost all girls grow up to be women who are pretty comfortable in their own skin - even if it takes decades.

I feel for you OP. This ideology is so very damaging . But I know there are lots of other mums on here who have helped their daughters through and are now out the other side - happily gender non conforming girls and young women.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong I can't see anything wrong with that Stonewall youth group link you shared? They're hardly discussing binders like the OP's DD and an open F2F group in school seems much safer than a closed online group.

I was still reading Judy Blume when I was 12 but if there was a group like this at my school it would have been a positive thing.

Why was the group needed?
• In both schools homophobic language was too commonly used and was less commonly challenged than sexist or racist language
• Students who identified as LGBT had no ‘safe’ place in school to discuss issues, be accepted or meet others
• SLT wanted to promote inclusion and acceptance across the school
• The groups were also intended to support students in developing their advocacy, leadership and presentation skills

A young person in my extended family succumbed to a sort of low level diagnosed depression at puberty - I suspect menstruation, weight gain re breasts & hips (mother with a history of various EDs) triggered unease & depression. Then at 15 started talking about gender dysphoria, then started on a medicalised transition at just shy of 17. I despair, I really do.

The one thing I keep wondering about is that at 15 (let alone 12) most young women don't know that much about sex, their sexual feelings, or even their sexuality.

And my young relative is now probably condemned to a relatively celibate life. I suspect they are really a lesbian, but such is the internalised lesbophobia in that country (a very conservative traditional country) that transing is more palatable.

You can be 12 and year 8...

But loads of secondary schools have in-person LGBT groups from 11 years onwards. It’s required for Stonewall ‘awards’: www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/2_setting_up_lgbt_groups_for_young_people.pdf

Youth groups like Proud Trust are aimed at 11-19 year olds and all their stuff is currently online due to virus risk.

Online forums are aimed at similar ages - Mermaids being a prime example, they tell kids to set up an email their parents can’t access. It’s a massive breach of safeguarding frameworks, but it doesn’t seem to adversely affect them. They get more corporate dosh than ever at the moment.

This stuff is completely mainstream from 11 onwards, Sapphos!

The only way to avoid it right now is via tight tech controls.

Who would have thought it eh NotBadConsidering , we do agree on something.

I'm still shocked that a child, presumably still in year 7, has come out as a lesbian, moved on to being trans, has access to LGBTQ message forums and is already talking about binders. She's barely old enough for a bra.

What other age appropriate interests does she have Op? Is she sporty? Musical? The cinemas will be opening soon. Sounds like she needs to spend some time just being 12.

Crikey! I had no idea that it was an actual boy!

Don’t take it away completely. I would lock It down so she can only speak to pre approved people that she knows in real life. No websites. You need to add a lock code so that only you can add new contacts etc.

There are email apps that will send a parent a copy of every incoming and outgoing message too.

I have applied to be part of Mermaids parent support group

Oh please don't! They promote young people contacting them without parents' knowledge, and they promote drugs which are not reversible and can be hugely harmful. Just look at what testosterone did to East German swimmers in the 1980s - and they were being given far smaller doses of testosterone than are recommended for FemaletoMale (FtM) transition.

I'd be investigating bullying at school about her being a lesbian. The depth of lesbophobia and misogyny in our society is just awful.

Good friends have been going through similar but with an older DD. They are very comfortable with different sexualities as one of the older siblings is a lesbian.

However the DD who is struggling with gender has also only recently been diagnosed with autism. The parents havent made any connection but from my reading on here and elsewhere is that there is a large overlap. Do you think your DD has undiagnosed needs?

Didn’t she come out as lesbian first?

So if she’s really a ‘boy’ she’s a straight boy?

Yet her (female) friend is also a ‘boy’? Because that makes her transphobic by in-group standards (she can’t really see this transboy as a boy).

I think this is indicative of what’s going on in a wider, cultural way. Our girls want to be transboys, they don’t actually want to be like natal boys and they don’t truly believe they have boy boy brains.

It’s a separate subcultural-type phenomenon.

Totally agree with everyone else re: restricting phone access/cutting down on online time/setting up her phone so it can only do stuff you have specifically agreed to do.

There are loads of settings to help with this, bit of a slog to learn them but they really do make everything else easier to manage.

Avoid mermaids!!!

I'd work on her self esteem around being a lesbian. Make sure she knows you support, her sexuality and that it is a non issue, she doesn't have to change her body.

Avoid Mermaids

Try to steer her away from social media for a bit.

I actually agree with Sapphos - shock! - that she shouldn’t be on chat boards, although that’s not missing the point, that’s the whole point. Confiscate her phone or significantly restrict it with access to particular websites. If it’s an iPhone it can be done through Screen Time. No way would I tolerate my 12 year old DD being on chat boards at all regardless of any gender issue, you’ve no idea who she’s talking to.