Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

12 yr old DD. Gender Dysphoria, sudden announcement

136 replies

Motherofajuggernaut · 30/06/2020 07:32

Hi
Title says it all really
Dd has just announced she is gender Dysphoric
We're all at sea

Not even sure where to begin.
Our reluctance to accept this carte blanche has been accusing of being transphobic. We're not but we are asking for time and open mindedness from ourselves and her.
It's clear there's been a lot of external social influence. Especially since lockdown, she's struggled to engage with school in any meaningful way and has been highly anxious.
She decided to break the news on the day of a family funeral where due to social distancing and travel etc only my husband attended when we would normally have all been there. Maximum impact
She came out in December as a lesbian we didn't skip a beat, sexuall preference is a non issue for us.
But now this...

We simply don't know where to begin

OP posts:
DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 03/07/2020 11:15

The new cat sounds like an excellent idea!

I’m glad her day in school went well and you have all the channels of communication open and a pathway set for dealing with anxiety.

You are doing a brilliant job so far.

With my stepdaughter, the boy-identity seems to have been an attempt at a retreat away from the things that were making her (understandably) anxious, two of which were growing up/leaving childhood & growing up noticeably female (and all the vulnerabilities that brings).

Dealing with the anxiety and the root causes of the anxiety with a professional will hopefully bring your daughter on a shorter, less scenic route to peace.

Motherofajuggernaut · 03/07/2020 11:06

Yesterday she had to go to school for an hour and when she got back she came up into the bedroom where I was sorting washing and chatted at me ten to the dozen. My cheerful chatty DD seems to be back for the minute at least.

A friend's cats are having babies so were getting a new kitten, and they were born Tuesday, and we saw the first photos yesterday. Will home it in time for going back to school and her 13th birthday. Hopefully it will help ground her and bring her out of herself a bit. She's cat mad.
Then she played a board game with DH and I in the evening.

I had a phone appointment with our gp who has been amazing. We saw the same GP for Dds anxiety in November. (Incidentally Dr also mother of a child in the same school and same year. She calling DD next week to go through a few things, asked her to write down how she's been feeling and was very insightful and comforting about this whole thing. She very much supports the idea that this is anxiety based.

I will.take some time later today to catch up on the new information on this thread. Thank you for your support xx

OP posts:
DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 03/07/2020 07:34

An article on Mermaids published by Spiked today (by Jo Bartosch):

www.spiked-online.com/2020/07/03/mermaids-leading-children-up-the-trans-path/

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 02/07/2020 14:37

Just to clarify (although I do hope it’s already clear) ‘attention seeking’ is not used by child psychologists as a negative term, just a neutral observation.

It’s perfectly understandable that 13 year old child in my DsD’s situation would exhibit attention seeking behaviours - kids need (and deserve) attention, and sometimes family life gets messy and attentions are directed elsewhere.

I’ve heard several stories of kids with what is (controversially) described as rapid onset gender dysphoria having a seriously ill or disabled sibling or a seriously ill/recently recovered parent, or a recent bereavement.
This is an emerging pattern, described by a number of international professionals who have workEd with ROGD children. As we know, actual research in this area is being blocked and/or ‘discredited’ (discredited by rumour, not facts!)

Children who are engaged in functional behaviours are doing it largely subconsciously - sometimes they might repeat something purposefully that originated by accident (see using a repeat excuse to leave a stressful classroom as an obvious example) but they aren’t generally thinking ‘if I do this, I will get this’.

With the cross sex identity stuff they simply stumble across a ready-made phenomenon that ticks a lot of desired results boxes - they feel lonely/excluded/not like other girls/hate their bodies/hate the shitty gendered expectations that society pushes onto girls from secondary age onwards and then they come across a YouTuber or a tumblr blog (or a classroom session on ‘gender identity’) that seems to make sense of those feelings. The pleasing results from the functional behaviours reinforces the the initial false premise (that you are really the opposite sex).

I think (and I am NOT a professional) that the way to pick it all apart is backwards - what is the desired outcome?
And why is that outcome satisfying?

So what is the root problem that the functional behaviour is resolving?

And how does it all fit with what every single one of us already knows about puberty and peer groups?

(And then we have to not take it too personally if some of the answers point in our own direction - rejecting one’s own mother, no matter how fantastic she is, is a hugely common part of teenage girlhood, this is just a novel, late 2010s/early 2020 way of doing the same!)

CatandtheFiddle · 02/07/2020 14:06

Yes, absolutely fascinating, and the stuff about attention, tangibles, and avoidance ring bells with me re my young relative. Sadly, too late now. I just hope they won't be adding to the ranks of detransitioners in 5 or 10 years' time.

PopperUppleton · 02/07/2020 13:24

DuDuDuLang that's a fascinating post, thank you

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 02/07/2020 13:09

Are you familiar with functional behaviours, Motherof?

They are most often discussed in relation to children with ASD or children who are misbehaving in school, but actually many of the weird stuff that kids and teens do can be assessed through the same lens.

The idea is that when a child ‘acts out’ in what appears to be an irrational way to adults, if you look carefully it is more rational than it first appeared:

This is an autism advice site, I can’t say as to whether it’s generally good for ASD advice but it was the clearest explanation of functional behaviours I found on the first page of google:

www.educateautism.com/behavioural-principles/functions-of-behaviour.html

If you think about these categories, what about a cross sex identity fits these that are relevant for your daughter?

As an example, using our own family:

#1 Social Attention
A person may engage in a certain behaviour to gain some form of social attention or a reaction from other people. For example, a child might engage in a behaviour to get other people to look at them, laugh at them, play with them, hug them or scold them.

A cross sex identity, or ‘coming out’ is an obvious attention grabber! In our case, we’d spent a year in and out of hospital with DsD’s seriously ill little step sister and her dad had started a new job while littlest sibling was in intensive care! So all eyes had been elsewhere for a while.

#2 Tangibles or Activities
Some behaviours occur so the person can obtain a tangible item or gain access to a desired activity. For example, someone might scream and shout until their parents buy them a new toy (tangible item) or bring them to the zoo (activity).

A cross sex identity is a great excuse for new things, clothes, bedroom decor, haircuts, even activities that might normally be stereotyped the other way (a sudden interest in ‘Male’ things might indicate a need to be near the male parent more often).

#3 Escape or Avoidance
Not all behaviours occur so the person can “obtain” something; many behaviours occur because the person wants to get away from something or avoid something altogether (Miltenberger, 2008).

There were two big ‘avoidance’ situations with my DsD - firstly, she was catcalled by an adult man for the first time (and dressing as a boy in baggy everything minimised the risk of this reoccurring) and secondly, she was being subjected to lesbophobic bullying in school changing rooms (‘don’t watch me getting undressed you gay peeve’ etc) and as a transboy she could change in the disabled loo. Also, going to visit the school counsellor whenever she felt ‘dysphoric’ was an efficient way to skip her least favourite classes/be elsewhere when homework needed to be completed

#4 Sensory Stimulation
The function of some behaviours do not rely on anything external to the person and instead are internally pleasing in some way – they are “self-stimulating” (O’Neill, Horner, Albin, Sprague, Storey, & Newton, 1997). They function only to give the person some form of internal sensation that is pleasing or to remove an internal sensation that is displeasing (e.g. pain).

Big saggy hoodies and an ever-present woolly hat obviously gave her some kind of comfort (as well as avoidance).

I did 6 months of multi systemic therapy with my eldest (who was wild around 14/15) and with that, the aim is to teach you to become your child’s therapist (so that when the service inevitably withdraws you aren’t straight back to where you started). Lots of what I learned then has been just as useful when dealing with my DsD’s gender distress. Equally, my youngest has regular pulses of psychological support (3 sessions and a break) to deal with her experience of serious illness and a lot of that is also transferable to my stepdaughter- it’s mostly exercises around self esteem and resilience building.

All this long-established, expert understanding of child behaviour and development seems to get chucked out of the window in favour of ‘affirmation’ by orgs like Stonewall, Mermaids, GIRES, Allsorts etc (and all the other smaller LGBT youth groups, many of whom were trained by the four I named anyway).

Gender distressed children are being let down left right and centre at the moment, either through a lack of curiosity in therapy or a lack of evidence in medical interventions - so whether you are a cheerleader of transkids or a skeptic like me, we should all be demanding better.

makemyweek · 02/07/2020 12:56

Just wanted to say, I'm happy you have had a productive conversation with her. Keep talking. I think you are handling this sensibly.

CatandtheFiddle · 02/07/2020 11:40

I've read that Mermaids is pretty reputable when it comes to counseling trans children and their parents

I've read that the founder of one of these organisations (I think it was Mermaids?) took her young teen child to Thailand to have reassignment surgery that's illegal in the UK, and now also illegal in Thailand.

If that's correct, it's certainly a "reputation" but I'm not sure that gives me confidence about the counselling being "reputable."

Aesopfable · 02/07/2020 09:47

And that is before you consider the regressive, sexist, pseudoscientific clap-trap that Mermaids ‘train’ everyone in.

Aesopfable · 02/07/2020 09:45

@ILikePlayingGuitar

I've read that Mermaids is pretty reputable when it comes to counseling trans children and their parents. Maybe you should look into that.

Best of luck!

They lobby for actions which fly in the face of good medical practice, they encourage children to chat to adults in secret chat rooms, they ignore much safeguarding, they have advised parents to visit quack doctors who have since been struck off (for doing what mermaids were sending children there for). They put huge amounts of confidential patient data onto a publically accessible website that was accessed by the public and didn’t even say ‘oops, sorry’...
hoodathunkit · 02/07/2020 07:50

Sadly you're right to be wary of counsellors atm OP.

this with bells on

In fact everyone is right to be wary of counsellors and psychotherapists right now, whatever their problem or issue. Our current system is extremely compromised and dysfunctional. Apologies to any decent counsellors out there but people need to be called out and you need to eaither lead, follow or get out of the way.

hoodathunkit · 02/07/2020 07:46

I had a look at her WhatsApp group thread where she talks to her trans friends and they are all kids as far as I can tell.

this is important

as far as I can tell

Anyone can be anyone on the internet. You know this anyway of course but it is worth repeating.

I've read that Mermaids is pretty reputable when it comes to counseling trans children and their parents. Maybe you should look into that.

Reputable? Are you insane?

ILikePlayingGuitar · 02/07/2020 03:44

I've read that Mermaids is pretty reputable when it comes to counseling trans children and their parents. Maybe you should look into that.

Best of luck!

Geppili · 02/07/2020 03:34

A BAME kid won the Bake Off! So my DCs friend says well done to the TV and blm.

unwashedanddazed · 01/07/2020 23:21

Have no helpful advice I can offer, but just wanted to say I'm glad you've had a positive day with your DD. Hope you get a good night's sleep and a more restful mind going forward, and the same for your DD.

stumbledin · 01/07/2020 23:14
Smile
Motherofajuggernaut · 01/07/2020 22:40

I think we have made a bit of a break through this evening. Just in terms on reconciling phone use. She came back from her day meeting her friend at 2.30 when she was supposed to be back at 3. She stayed in touch all day via text. I'm happy she was with her friend, there are selfies of them together today. Her friend is a straight cis girl and generally found her to be sensible.

The sexting I saw was from an app called Replika. Where they can role play..my husband dealt with this bit of the conversation and I don't fully understand, but they were messing about, there was no real sexting..it's an AI...gawd knows. I will look into it further.

I had a look at her WhatsApp group thread where she talks to her trans friends and they are all kids as far as I can tell.
Instagram is gone

We have asked her to send us her sources of information, had a frank and open conversation about where she was getting her info from...mostly from Insta. So I gently questioned if she has done research elsewhere and suggested that she might not want to base a life changing decision on things she's read on Instagram.
I feel it went well, she was receptive and open..it was done without anger or too much emotional charge.
She doesn't want to take hormones, she wasn't happy about the binder, I have told her that's not happening yet. She's also annoyed we won't change the pronouns we use yet but again we have asked her to wait until September at least.
I think once she returns to school and has more to occupy her she will come out the other side. I feel more positive this evening than I have done in days

OP posts:
Binterested · 01/07/2020 21:51

Quite right notbad

An organisation I’m involved in reviewed its safeguarding policy today. I was impressed at its starkness and lack of equivocation. Closing down discussion of safeguarding issues or concerns is clearly prohibited - even if they turn out to have no foundation. Obviously one cannot make completely baseless accusations on a public forum but I wonder what MN’s safeguarding policy says and how they square that with deleting these references.

NotBadConsidering · 01/07/2020 21:34

Grooming is a general risk for 12 year olds having unfettered access to the internet and social media. It’s why my kids of that age are not even allowed TikTok - they were sent messages by random strangers. Posts should not be deleted for pointing out the issues with children being exposed to strangers on the internet. It is NOT saying that any particular interest group partakes in grooming, but it IS saying that children should not be talking to strangers under any assumptions as to who they are.

If someone reports this, then I hope MNHQ takes a serious look at who they are and what their motivations might be, and if MNHQ deletes this, I hope they ask themselves some serious questions why, because this is a deletion I will fight all the way.

OP if she has an iPhone I can advise how to restrict without removing it all together.

Binterested · 01/07/2020 21:22

Sorry OP I missed your latest message. I’m sure the shock and trauma of the diagnosis would have taken a toll on all of you.

Binterested · 01/07/2020 21:21

Off topic slightly but I've had a post of mine deleted from this thread, I presume because I used the G word

Let’s just call it seeking to alienate a child from its parents and encouraging the child to pledge allegiance to another group. Because that is what’s happening here.

I’m glad the OP has been alerted to the techniques here. MN should be encouraging this discussion on a parenting site - not hiding terms that make some people feel bad.

Motherofajuggernaut · 01/07/2020 21:19

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

Has anything happened? A divorce/ death/ bullying etc? Lots of the ROGD stories I've read seem to have a traumatic event as their trigger point. Anything just not seemed right at school/home/with her friends in a way you couldn't quite put your finger on? Any way you can get a look at the browsing history on her phone and see how far it goes back? I agree with PP that it's better she have screens you can monitor than secret ones you can't.
Has anything happened? Apart from a global pandemic, we have had a lot of "stuff" her dad was diagnosed with cancer 2 yes ago but he's really well and on active monitoring.
OP posts:
ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 01/07/2020 19:26

Has anything happened? A divorce/ death/ bullying etc? Lots of the ROGD stories I've read seem to have a traumatic event as their trigger point. Anything just not seemed right at school/home/with her friends in a way you couldn't quite put your finger on? Any way you can get a look at the browsing history on her phone and see how far it goes back? I agree with PP that it's better she have screens you can monitor than secret ones you can't.

doublehalo · 01/07/2020 19:11

Off topic slightly but I've had a post of mine deleted from this thread, I presume because I used the G word.

In the context of this thread I would've thought the word appropriate but maybe not?

Is this normal mumsnet moderating?