Why r/GenderCritical was banned by Reddit

I don’t think GC, objectively, was hateful. Maybe a thicker skin is the answer, OP. I don’t think shutting down speech one doesn’t like is the answer.

Because of their social conditioning it is very difficult for most men to grasp that they are not the main character in every woman's life story.
That understanding requires more change than simply a thicker skin.

Ie all the toilets were either ladies or gender neutral. I wasnt very clear

Money talks, I can hear it saying ''make the mens toilet mixed sex''
Yes this. Previous employer had floor to ceiling cubicles, a ladies and a gender neutral.

Makes sense as women actually need more toilets because they take longer than men for various reasons.

Don't know why more firms aren't doing this, it seems like the ideal solution. No third spaces required and women who need absolute privacy from males e.g. for religious reasons, can have that.

Yes, separate sex toilets and the onus should be on men to change their behaviour so that trans women don't feel unsafe in the toilet that corresponds to their birth sex.

Third spaces are the obvious solution to take into account everyone's needs. I don't fully understand why they're more expensive space wise than designing and building two different sets of toilets. There's no reason at all that their use should be limited to just trans people. Trans allies and people who don't mind which sex they share a toilet area with would obviously be free to use them as well.

So three sets of toilets or changing areas, which is what swimming pools tend to have with a women's area/men's area and mixed sex family area.

And in all cases, the onus should be on providing toilet/changing facilities in the most hygienic, efficient way that ensures everyone's safety and dignity as much as possible.

Public facilities aren't there to validate someone's gender identity.

Whatever else it might or might not be "TWAW" is society's cost-effective solution.

Or alternatively, it would be simpler to just stick to the original reason for having two sets of loos, with somewhat different equipment in them - one for males and one for females. There's absolutely no reason 'gender' should be a consideration.

Kantastic, that looks like a great read, thank you! I will read it in more detail later.

I should probably have said “almost all can communicate and find common ground”. There will always be the fanatics and the lunatics. I just believe that in this case, the extremists cannot afford to have an open, rational debate around this.

It is scary to enter into a debate around these issues. I am reasonably thick skinned and confident in my ability to debate issues once I know some facts. But I found it quite frightening to start posting on this board.

I hope that the more open debate we have, the more lurkers on both sides will see that there is indeed common ground. And how extreme some of the fanatics are.

I completely see your point Prodigal.

However, I do believe that some (who like me never visited the site) could have a misconception on what it was about. A misconception founded by extreme activists, fuelled by skim reading of particular posts and later purported to be the truth. Anyone would be delighted to hear that a “misogynistic hate site” was closed.

I just wonder how much of the forum they actually read. I have now read several of the archived posts, I have joined the new forum on saidit and I have not so far seen a single post which I thought was hateful. I will also state this to anyone I discuss this with. I haven’t had the stomach to look at any of the other still-standing delightful reddit forums with rape in the board name,h but I will try after a glass of wine in order to get a fuller picture.

We need some places where we all can communicate and find common ground

The problem is that - with no aspersions intended on trans people who are out there just living their lives- when it comes to the trans activists who drive the debate and unfortunately drive policy we are not dealing with people who are reasonable.

It's only when you grasp exactly how unreasonable many of the people driving this conversation are, and how entirely impossible it is to compromise with them, that you really start to understand what's going on. I recommend reading this bit of history, it's a surprisingly fun read and even though it describes events from 2003 it gives very useful insights into how trans activism became what it is today. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170124/

GenderCynical was actually my first introduction after reading that paper, to how unreasonable TRAs are. I read some of GC, was astonished at how sensible it all was and alarmed at the repeating patterns of abusive encounters with transwomen that were evident in women's personal stories.

Then I read GenderCynical hoping for some counterbalance and to see "the other side" and after thirty minutes I was fully onboard the T*rf train.

I'm not sure if the extreme unreasonableness of GenderCynical is self-evident any more, as they specialised in twisting stuff out of context, and now the context doesn't exist to show them up. But don't expect reason from anyone who posted there regularly.

Money talks, I can hear it saying ''make the mens toilet mixed sex''

I guess that I am just hoping to find that a lot of people haven’t thought this through properly.

For the majority of the general public I think that is the case, and I don't think that arguments on the pro gender side can stand up to that level of public scrutiny. For people who're delighted that Reddit GC got banned, not so much.

Hands up, I am very new to this debate.

I guess that I am just hoping to find that a lot of people haven’t thought this through properly. That if the debate is very open and all potential implications are discussed rationally that some common sense will prevail in the majority of people.

Sometimes I have a sense that this is exactly why some extremists are trying to shut the open conversation down.

A line that sticks in my head was a comment that said something like "we won't do x, because that would mean legitimising trans".

What's x, in this context?

I think we might be talking at cross purposes WRT to the concept of existence.

Sometimes there isn't any common ground. I know that's upsetting for women who're relatively new to this debate to think about , but most of those of us being a lot less conciliatory started from a "let's talk this out" position, and there's a reason why we don't try any more.

Extra funny in that GC was literally attacked, which is why it's gone now.

It's the trademark reversal.

I think it is essential that there are multiple ways /places to talk about this. The problem is that there are few people IRL most people can talk to.

We need some places where we all can communicate and find common ground. The polarisation and suspicion between GC women and trans women is (I believe) to a large extent unnecessary. I do believe that many trans women agree on the need to protect single sex spaces, sports etc. Likewise I believe many GC women would sign petitions for third spaces and help trans women lobby for those. In these discussions, I believe that we all have to be very careful and specific in how we phrase things to avoid painful misunderstandings.

However, I believe that there also is a need for places to went. A GC woman will need to be able to have a rant (within reason) without worrying about upsetting someone sensitive.
Same goes for trans women.

I wonder if the problem is again an expectation on women to be kind. A trans woman seem to be able to tweet explicit suggestions about rape and their genitalia to women (like JK Rowling) whereas women need to watch their speech also in places like GC where they expect to be able to talk more freely.

It's not pleasant seeing what you are regarded as not so much a person as more a line in the sand.

There are a lot of things TRAs say which are not pleasant for women to see, as it demonstrates how many of them, like many males in general, don't actually see women as people. But of course, our feelings aren't in any way significant, are they OP?

Forgot to put my comment, completely agree with kittens' post.

As usual Ova is correct. It's quite funny to see how unnerving male humans find it not to be centered, if you have the right kind of sense of humor.

Extra funny in that GC was literally attacked, which is why it's gone now.

I felt attacked by r/GC, although I never complained directly, and I flatter myself I've got a pretty thick skin.

oh now, that's hilarious. I'm not sure it compensates for the OP's other posts but it is at least a new one on me.

The whole idea of a stalker sub is inherently creepy. They also came across as a bit desperate for attention in that dog that won't stop pawing at your leg sort of way. Just not an impressive group of people, overall, and prone to reaching so hard it's a wonder there were no dislocated shoulders.

I just didn’t find gender critical to be a hateful sub. Now, I didn’t like Gender Cynical very much - it made me feel uncomfortable. It was pretty creepy to know there was a stalker sub who twisted every post and comment wildly out of context. And I know a few women got disgusting messages from gender cynical posters (the usual kind - “go kill yourself, TERF). Is gender cynical a hate sub? It’s certainly filled with people who are brimming with hate and contempt,and who seem to hate women speaking. But guess what ? I just didn’t read it. Op, you mentioned going on gender critical as a kind of self harm. If your feelings were hurt that was a result of your choice to go onto the sub. I would never dream of calling for gender cynical to be banned (although that sub did violate Reddit’s terms and conditions by being a stalker sub and set up just to monitor another community).

As for your statement about trans people existing independently... yeah no one denies that. Trans people exist. I simply disagree with trans people’s theory about transness. I have a different view about gender. So trans women exist - as trans women. On my view of gender they aren’t women.

As usual Ova is correct. It's quite funny to see how unnerving male humans find it not to be centered, if you have the right kind of sense of humor.