Why r/GenderCritical was banned by Reddit

Maybe some do, who knows but bit much to claim as fact they're out to demote us all as women

People who support a TWAW ideology are absolutely "out" to "demote" women.

Look at the language.

The term "cis" has been deliberately coined and utilised in this debate to demote women to a sub category of their own sex.

It's a linguistic attempt to redefine the meaning of the word "woman" into a mailable concept as a route to render it meaningless as far describing an adult human female and the unique experience of womanhood.

In that sense I'd go further than the word "demote" and use the word "redundant" in terms of intent.

Proponents of the TWAW gender identity ideology, lemonade. Not all trans people. Read the post I was referring to.

YY. They want to demote us to a third class

"They?"
I'm pretty sure "they" all don't, sounds a bit of a sweeping generalisation?
Maybe some do, who knows but bit much to claim as fact they're out to demote us all as women

The TWAW mantra and associated ideology is oppressive and misogynistic in its desire not only re-cast womanhood as a "concept" but also appropriate the experiences of being a biological female whilst simultaneously denigrating us as a demographic when we say we object to this

YY. They want to demote us to a third class.

Men

transwomen and other biologically male trans people

women and biologically female trans people

Women seem to be the only group who aren't allowed to police the boundaries of their own identity.

I'd edit that to revise the word "seem" with "are".

The TWAW mantra and associated ideology is oppressive and misogynistic in its desire not only re-cast womanhood as a "concept" but also appropriate the experiences of being a biological female whilst simultaneously denigrating us as a demographic when we say we object to this.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

It's strange to me that the only category that you can identify into is 'sex/gender'. This enables the oppressors of women, men, to claim a female identity for themselves and to frame women as the oppressors (which is very convenient if you want to, say, destroy the women's liberation movement.) White people cannot declare themselves to be 'trans black'. It would be absurd to see a white person take over Black Lives Matter and claim to be more oppressed than 'cis black people'. And it's the same for literally every other socially constructed category in existence. I can't just self identity as disabled, or as a child, or as a different nationality.

It's even more galling given that we are told that identity is all about how someone 'feels' inside. Well, if I feel like a six year old child (a feeling that I have actually experienced!) why can't I self identify as a six year old? But all of a sudden it turns out that my feelings aren't so valid at all. Reality takes precedence. If I claim to be a child I'm a liar or a fraud. Women seem to be the only group who aren't allowed to police the boundaries of their own identity.

And isn't it suspicious , or strange, that 'transness' as a phenomenon only occurs in the domain of sex

I don't think so - it's because sex is the one true immutable binary characteristic of humans.

And isn't it suspicious , or strange, that 'transness' as a phenomenon only occurs in the domain of sex
curious as to how that's suspicious or strange?

This is just to say that from a female point of view this isn't mere 'theory' to us either.

Indeed.

@MadBadDaddy
But Gender Critical wasn't a debate sub, nor did it allow feminism 101 discussions. If you popped onto Gender Critical crowing about your victory over the evil transphobes then yeah, you would have presumably been booted off for trolling. Brigading was never endorsed, and posters were banned if they brigaded. With regard to the gulf between our perceptions - this is a real problem. Women have the lifelong experience of being females in a deeply patriarchal society. The idea that a male could have an experience of himself as a female is something completely alien to many women - how could that be true? And how offensive for one of our oppressors to say that not only is he one of us, but he is actually the most oppressed! And isn't it suspicious , or strange, that 'transness' as a phenomenon only occurs in the domain of sex - there is no such thing as trans age, or trans race, or trans class? This is just to say that from a female point of view this isn't mere 'theory' to us either.

The fact that this discussion is even taking place is the main difference between MN & r/GC

Very true, and that's one good thing MN has going for it, it allows discussion (even though posters themselves in FWR sometimes don't seem to want a discussion or try to hound you off if you speak up with a different opinion)
As in if you stay around, answer repeated questions at you, you're merailing, or ooo recipes, who knows about weetabix?! or if you go away like asked you apparently can't hack it and you've gone to do your knitting or bake a cake instead
WTF make your mind up lol

"However, I still don't think it was a wrong move on Reddit's part. "whataboutery" doesn't justify any hateful behaviour."

Haven't read the whole thread, so perhaps you have addressed this elsewhere but...

What do you consider to be "hateful behaviour"?

Is it "hateful behaviour" merely to deny that TWAW? Or to say that they should be excluded from women's sports? Or that they should be excluded from certain women-only areas or facilities?

Is it "hateful" to voice the opinion that they are suffering from a mental illness, rather than them actually being women/men as they identify?

Generally speaking, I would say political discourse should allow for a fair amount of supposed "hate", because of course accusations of "hate" are somewhat subjective. Different sides can accuse each other of being hateful, while defending their own use of rhetoric. You don't want accusations of hate to easily shut down political debate. You can accuse abortionists of being "murderers" right? Is that hateful? From one perspective sure it may look like hateful rhetoric. From another perspective it's just an accurate statement of the immorality of what they are doing.

Of course you can distinguish threats of violence, harassment, and personal abuse, from political rhetoric. But in political rhetoric, supposed "hate" needs to be protected to a high degree, or it's the end of free speech.

You're right, no-ones ever asked me suck anything online. I have mixed feelings on that.

MadBadDaddy, was this a joke? If so, can you not see how utterly inappropriate it is?

Especially when you see so many passionate women doing so much on these threads and in real life

So, ashamed as I am to say it, I wimp out. I try to keep my own little corner free of weeds as I've described above, I'll sign a petition or upvote a post, but I guess that's all

I know what you mean

Sometimes I don’t even sign the petition

It’s shameful really

Having been a regular of Gender Critical for many years, I think the sub was about as hateful as Mumsnet- which is to say it wasn't.I can see why someone wouldn't like it if they had a different theory about gender.

Why aren't you campaigning and organising for the rape and violence threads to be taken down? As you are so against people saying hateful things? Don't you think they are hateful?

You're right, no-ones ever asked me suck anything online. I have mixed feelings on that.

....uh okay.

@madbaddaddy Thanks for the reply and for confirming your stance on the rape subs. I hope you'll see that Mumsnet is a platform containing multiple points of view, just as Reddit is.

I don't think you or trans people and their supporters in general are responsible for 'suck my dick' stuff or 'cotton ceiling' stuff and I know many trans people deplore that stuff too. For the most part, women and trans people are terrified of violent men - it's something we have in common and something (in my opinion) we should work together on.

I will forever think that Reddit HQ fucked up here though, and that the maintenance of the rape subs is grotesque and deeply revealing of their misogyny.

Why is it a case of "silencing women"
Surely if there's hateful shit being posted it doesn't matter a toss what sex you are