Why r/GenderCritical was banned by Reddit

If a male were truly socialised as a female, he would not want to butt in to places where he was utterly unwelcome; he'd be ashamed to. Therefore no male-bodied person who insists in intruding into any woman-only space is truly socialised as a female; and if he is not socialised as a female he definitely ought not to be infringing on such a space.

Indeed. Regarding the issue of whether or not women are OK with what you plan to do to them as essentially irrelevant is as male socialized as it gets.

If a male were truly socialised as a female, he would not want to butt in to places where he was utterly unwelcome; he'd be ashamed to. Therefore no male-bodied person who insists in intruding into any woman-only space is truly socialised as a female; and if he is not socialised as a female he definitely ought not to be infringing on such a space.

This this this.

The above (from CoffeeTeaChocolate) sums up my feelings about this issue perfectly (thank you CTC).

I wouldn't describe myself as a GC feminist - I'm just a middle-aged SAHM who wandered in here a year or so ago and became increasingly horrified and angered by the current trans idealogy.

My female socialization (if that's what it is) is very strong. I was raised to believe I should be kind and considerate and put others needs ahead of my own, and have often compromised my own feelings and safety because of this. I was sexually abused as a child because I had to 'be kind' to my neighbour's teenage son, who had a learning disability, and as a young women, I fell for many a 'sob story' from men who were trying to get into my knickers (and I don't mean wanting to wear them). So I know, first hand, how manipulative men can be and I've no doubt that some will take advantage of self-ID to abuse women and girls.

On the other hand, my natural instinct is to be sympathetic to people who have gender dysphoria, and to anyone who is abused or shamed because they don't fit into the usual gender stereotypes. So I often find myself wondering (as in that David Mitchell meme) if I'm the bad guy.

But, in the end, as CTC says (much more eloquently than I'm managing to) the safety of women and girls is more important than the validation of transwomen's feelings - and if transwomen really do consider themselves women they should understand that. Some do of course. I've watched some of the Blair White and Rose of Dawn videos - and they clearly get it; but many others are just 'me, me, me' and couldn't seem to give a toss about the genuine and reasonable concerns of natal women - while expecting us to fall over backwards to accommodate them. Seems like fairly typical male behaviour to me.

As for the cancelling of the Reddit site - I never really looked at it, as any time I've accidentally wandered into Reddit I've got the impression it's Incel HQ - and quickly wandered out again. Given how nasty it seems to be in there generally, it seems unlikely the GC bit was cancelled for nastiness per se - though I don't think it was misogyny either. Rather, it seems that trans people have some special status, which means they must be protected from all offence, but are allowed to insult, harass and even threaten 'cis' people, especially women, with impunity. So much for 'cis' privilege, hey!

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime (or anyone else?) could you maybe point me in the direction of some research on socialisation? I genuinely believe in biology (female = XX), but would like to know more about socialisation theories if these are being used in the debate.

"I can't understand the efforts to gaslight it as some kind of proud martyr to women's rights"

I really don't think "gaslight" is the word you are looking for there. In the context it is meaningless, and I am sure you must have intended to mean something.

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If a male were truly socialised as a female, he would not want to butt in to places where he was utterly unwelcome; he'd be ashamed to. Therefore no male-bodied person who insists in intruding into any woman-only space is truly socialised as a female; and if he is not socialised as a female he definitely ought not to be infringing on such a space.

If the law is altered so that he (and someone with male genitalia and secondary sex characteristics such as a full beard is male, whatever he may feel about his sexuality) can insist on his right to enforce his presence in spaces where he is neither welcome nor properly speaking entitled to be, he will clearly prove every time he insists on going into one that he is not actually female.

Thank you @MadBadDaddy, that is very helpful. As I said before, I am just happy for you that you have found a way to express yourself which feels authentic for you. I really hope I didn’t come across as trying to logic you into change anything about yourself.

The only reason I was pressing for definitions (you did bring up socialisation) is due to things like single sex spaces, sports and childhood transitioning.

I personally spend very little (if any) time in single sex spaces and most of my life is outside them. I think that it is possible to live a full life mainly outside them. That is why I don’t understand why this access is so important to trans women, why there cannot be a third space? And why Self ID is so important in this access demand, especially as this increases the risk of (non-trans) predators so dramatically? And in situations where some already vulnerable biological women and girls are particularly exposed?

I think I was the one who said that you disregarded others needs. This was only in relation to access to single sex spaces, particularly based on self ID. I believe that anyone who finds their access more important than the safety of extremely exposed, vulnerable biological women and girls does focus on their own needs and disregards others. As you have mixed feeling about this and consider it “a can of worms” it doesn’t appear to apply to you . I hope I phrased it as “comes across as”, if I stated it as an absolute fact, I apologise.

Omg MadBadDaddy you're a T*rf!!! You can't say things like that.

What I don't understand is the leap to thinking that means they are a woman. I really wish people were "widening the bandwidth of man" by wearing stereotypically female clothes/make up etc. I think that would be properly brave.

This!!! I would stand shoulder to shoulder and fight for your right to be yourself as a man who loves dresses, makeup etc. Your right to be safe in doing this, not have to fear male violence.

Wearing trousers never turned women into men a hundred years ago. I don't see how wearing dresses turns men into women today.

Sure, the way they present is integral to their being.

But so what? That doesn't make them a man or a woman. It cannot, because it means anyone not doing that, isn't a man or a woman.

If being a woman means presenting as X then logically not presenting as X means you're not a woman.

But plenty of women don't present as X. So they aren't women to OP. Not to mention it is blatantly stereotyping what OP is doing, and in a sexist manner.

I think we should all express/present ourselves in a way that we feel is authentic for ourselves

When i worked in a slightly more expensive high street dress shop we had two regular Transwomen Customers

But we also had a man with a very ‘manly’ job, who looked very manly and was obviously a man who loved wearing pretty dresses

He went to a wedding in a 50’s style prom dress that cost about £200, everyone he knew at work and friends and family knew he liked pretty dresses and apparently he had never had any issues with the general public

Sorry OP, cross post. I will read your post and get back when I get home.

I think we should all express/present ourselves in a way that we feel is authentic for ourselves.

However, this has an impact on single sex spaces. Therefore I think it is very useful to have an open discussion about this, for my own (developing) understanding and for others’ and for potential lurkers.

I propose to define woman by biology, the OP appears to reject this.

The OP brings up socialisation, something I am not that familiar with. Fair enough, explain it to me and let’s discuss .

I don’t really believe in female brains etc, but I am definitely interested in discussing!

Ideally, I would like to see a list of all research in this area and a list of the markers for male and female socialisation. These markers should then be colour coded based on the weight of the accepting research journal and amount of citations. Using this, I would like an anonymous Venn diagram of the OP. I will be happy to provide one of myself. For me, this would be a good starting point for discussing socialisation. This is how my “female” brain works.

I think it is very important that these kind of discussions are open and that we are very precise in our wording of terms which may be unfamiliar. I am sure we all agree that getting this wrong would be devastating.

And more importantly, why this access includes anyone who says that they require it regardless of presentation? And why this access for all is more important than safeguarding?

Yeah exactly. OP hasn't responded to say whether they recognise people's concerns about this

Oh no not you specifically sorry, I meant the thread generally and all the posters being sceptical about OP feeling themselves when dressed.

The thread has been quite thought provoking

And more importantly, why this access includes anyone who says that they require it regardless of presentation?

And why this access for all is more important than safeguarding?

QuentinWinters, I really hope I am not . I think it is great however the OP wants to present themselves- and I said that above!! More power to them if they have found a style that makes them feel good!!

From what I understand they want access to female only spaces though? So I am trying to understand why they think they should have this.

I am just trying to have an open discussion and get a better understanding of their point of view. I hope I am doing this in a respectful way.

Hmmm. I think you are being a little harsh on the op now. I know plenty of people (men and women) who use clothes and makeup as an integral part of how they present themselves to the world. I guess a stereotypical example would be the woman who gets up before her partner so he never sees her without makeup.
So I can understand why OP says that they feel "themselves" when dressing as a female.
What I don't understand is the leap to thinking that means they are a woman. I really wish people were "widening the bandwidth of man" by wearing stereotypically female clothes/make up etc. I think that would be properly brave.

MrGHardy, this is what I am trying to understand from the OP’s point of view. There are lots of women (and men) that I have very little in common with and that is completely fine. We are all different.

Biologically I am a women and therefore I (and my daughters) can use single sex spaces. Biological males should in my opinion not do that. This is an easy distinction to make, but the OP seems to disagree.

The OP is using terms such as “male and female socialisation”, which I am not that familiar with. Then is appears that the OP may be using these terms incorrectly as they seem to cherry pick one particular trait (style) ? And disregard another typical female one (importance of others’ needs) which obviously do not apply to the OP? And whilst being very confident in explaining to us what to think. Is this a male socialisation marker for those who know?

I just thought they were reasonable questions to ask and interested to know.

It is an absolutely ridiculous notion to argue that one feels 'female'. Feelings are subjective, being female is not, it simply cannot be a feeling.

Moreover, this whole concept of feeling or identifying as something is illogical, there's over 3 billion men and women on the planet, do they all feel/identify in the same way?

No dude, what you identify with is certain stereotypes. I mean you more or less, just in other words, said 'the first time I put on heels I knew I was a woman'.

It's nothing but sexist stereotypes you have and identify with.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn that is interesting that putting the needs of others ahead of ones own is a result of female socialisation. I didn’t realise that (I am still learning about this).

So, if I understand the OP correctly, they

Rejects biology as a basis for being a women, even though this has very tangible differences in average physical strength and obvious physical differences in genitalia?

Rejects a main female socialisation outcome (putting others need ahead of ones own) as a basis for being a woman ?

Defines being a woman as “presenting as a woman” which I assume means dresses, styled hair and make-up? Something I don’t do?

And due to these preferred style choices, it is essential that they (and anyone who has similar feelings, regardless how they chose to style themselves) are allowed access to single sex spaces and single sex sports? Even if a self-ID would enable predators to enter as well with a real risk to vulnerable girls and women?

@MadBadDaddy if you are happy in how you present yourself, I think that is great, more power to you. But can you not see that I feel like my reality check just bounced based on the above??

For the record, our local swimming pool has a male, a female and a communal changing room. I wait for up to 15 min for a cubicle in the communal one as one of my children is a boy of 9 (who could pass for 8). I don’t think that it is right to take him into a single sex space. But if I understand you correctly, you think that you belong there based on your presentation? And any other adult biological male if they feel that they do?

Or have I misunderstood something?