Stephen King retweets JKR

Because a man who feels like a woman and wishes to identify as one is often vulnerable in the way a woman is to sexual assault. If someone is transitioning it's because they feel like a woman. The online commentary on this issue has overlooked why they are doing it, not to hurt anyone but to live the way they want to live.

What does it mean to "feel like a woman"? How can you know what it "feels" like to be a woman? You can only know what "feeling" like a woman is if you have actually lived in a woman's body and actually, you know, EXPERIENCED the things that having a woman's body brings. Which is a bit more than "deciding what to wear each morning".

I'm an extremely mild-tempered, soft-spoken woman who doesn't even use swear words and who has never once yelled at anyone -- ever! But this nonsense has tried me to my very limits. These people have NO IDEA what it is to be a woman, and their "hurt feelings" means absolutely nothing to me. I am not going to #bekind.

I have lived all my life in not only a female body but a black female body and I have never once complained to anyone about what I've gone through and trust me, I know all about hurt feelings. But I didn't go whingeing to everyone or tried to police anyone's racist or sexist thoughts, and wallowed in and nursed my poor hurt feelings or expected anyone else to wallow in and nurse them, because, you know, I had a life to live and I saw my feelings as something I could and would get over, and I worked at myself and matured and grew strong and just got on with being and doing my best and raising my family and doing my work. And transwomen whinging publicly about being vulnerable and oppressed and wanting their hurt feelings pandered to leaves me stone cold. And I am usually a very warm and embracing person but I have reached the limit of my compassion through observing this absolute shitshow.

And I cannot believe that there are women, self-described "trans allies", who care more about the hurt feelings of men demanding the right to share loos and showers and changing rooms and sports with women because of hurt feelings. No, just no.

Why aren't they allies of actual women who are victims of rape, DV, FGM, prostitution, porn, murdered by their partners? That's where my compassion goes. All of it.

So no, Benny. Just no. I will not be lectured by you or any man. I will not bow down.

The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality."

Yes, that is very misleadingly worded. When you divide the group into two, the numbers of violent crime convictions become too small for statistical significance. . This would happen with any study if you divide the study population arbitrarily into small enough groups. They didn't find the later group of TW are less violent. They just found that the numbers are too small to say anything meaningful when you make smaller subgroups.
It's a fudge, in other words. That quote is fudging the truth and doesn't change the reported finding in her study that transwomen are 30 times more violent than women.

Now, your turn. Find a study that proves transwomen aren't as violent as men.

I looked through that and yes there are definitely people who are trans who are predatory and maybe even a tiny amount of predators who would pretend to be trans to get access to victims. But you can't paint them all with the same brush

No, and we don't. What we do is apply the same safeguarding measures as we apply to all males - for eg. My husband is actually a great guy and would never harm a hair on a woman's head. His exclusion from all-female spaces is not "painting him with the same brush" as predatory males. Sex-segregrated facilities are there for a reason - and the reason is to allow women safety and privacy away from males. Before we had them, women were essentially barred from public life.

Have a read of this to see the history of women's sex-segregated toilets - we've only had them in the UK for just over 100 years. www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

Transwomen are entitled to rights and safety - but that shouldn't mean just allowing any male who self-identifies as a woman into female spaces. That absolutely opens it up to potential predators - because that allows any man to say "I'm a woman". Hell, with self-ID, they don't even have to dress as women to self-identify as women.

Thanks Benny. All women ask is that you listen to what we are saying, use your critical thinking skills, and investigate thoroughly before writing off anyone desperately fighting to retain sex based provision as a bigot.
Read around the board, engage. There is a reason we are so fucking angry. Writing us off when you have not had the courtesy to look up your own ‘solutions’ and realise that your own views are as ‘transphobic’ as ours is enraging.
But thank you for pausing and allowing a chink of women’s needs in. Stay. Read. Learn. You can still disagree. 🤷‍♀️

Yes. In fact I think you may have found the 'test' that Benny was talking about.

On entry to a woman's space, people who look like men should be asked: 'do you want to go in there, even though the women in there are vulnerable and are uncomfortable with your presence?'

If the answer is 'no of course not. I'll go in the mens - or is there another space I can use?' that person is probably safe to be there - but won't be because they have respect.

If they say 'yeah. I want to go in there. I'm a woman just like them and I don't give a crap if they're uncomfortable' then they are a narcissist, have no respect for boundaries and need to fuck right off.

Either way, women get their own space and we are not tarring anyone with a brush they have not chosen for themselves.

Done.

[quote aliasundercover]@MilleniumHallsWalledGarden

You beat me to it :)[/quote]
It bears repeating

@MilleniumHallsWalledGarden
@aliasundercover

I have already quoted Cecilia Dhejne who has clarified that research that she conducted that you are both quoting.

"f one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality."

So it seems trans women did retain male patterns of criminality in the past but they don't anymore. Perhaps this is because society has changed and become more tolerant and the socialisation into gender roles easier to come back from.

While it seems like a complicated issue, I don't think you can use this study to say trans women are the same threat as men because the lead research on the study says that is not the case anymore. They will know their own work

Various posts here about the evidence of brain differences in trans people, if anyone cares to look. Lots of other science discussed too.

The Glinner thing www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3951265-The-Glinner-thing

@MilleniumHallsWalledGarden

You beat me to it :)

regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime

In this study, male-to-female individuals had a higher risk for criminal convictions compared to female controls but not compared to male controls. This suggests that the sex reassignment procedure neither increased nor decreased the risk for criminal offending in male-to-females

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885#s3

TehBewilderness so true and so depressing. How is it women that are getting the blame for this? Everyone needs a safe space from men - women, transwomen and trans men.

Again that’s not to tar all men with the same brush. We of course know they are not all a risk. But we wouldn’t just let all and sundry men into a rape crisis centre because we were worried about offending them. As a PP said my husband is not a risk to women but he is rightly not allowed in women’s single sex spaces and I would be deeply concerned if he had a problem with that.

robin

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.

I'm sure I pissed a lot of people off but I'm new to the issue, and outside it really so I apologise for my earliest comments.

But just like to say I have had my mind changed somewhat tonight for what it's worth

Very gracious of you Benny.
If you decide to campaign for third spaces, let us know how you get on. Or maybe a campaign to help your feminine-presenting brothers feel safe in men's spaces? You already have a slogan:
JUST SCREAM

@OldCrone sorry I just read the two links you sent and right away it jumped out that the IDW and the Quilette make these kinds of arguments, apologies if that is not representative.

As for the Quillette, contributors Claire Lehmann has a history with the 'human biodiversity movement', Toby Young describes himself as a 'progressive eugenicist, and they defend people like Charles Murray writer of the infamous 'the bell curve'

Should read "I understand".

by this logic would you be happy to accept very male looking trans men into these spaces as you consider them women?

I under people think of this as a gotcha. It isn't.
One of the reasons policy is written so that transgender persons can use whichever changing room they feel comfortable in is because the writers of policy do not want to require transmen to go into the males space. Because of the sex based risk.
Transmen are incarcerated in the women's estate for the same reason.
Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

Benny. Not all men are rapists. But we still don’t let them into places where women are naked. By your account, if they put on a fucking dress, they get a free pass. Everywhere. Rape refuges, prisons, hospital wards, sports teams, podiums, all-female political shortlists, women in business awards.
You are about to nod through the removal of sex as a protected characteristic in law because you believe women do not need rights.
Thanks a fucking lot.

I would love to accommodate and compromise. There’s no compromise in ‘acceptance without exception’. There’s no way to even voice our concerns without being labelled bigots and threatened with sexual violence.

Most people in the real world have absolutely no idea what the new trans activism is all about. They hear oh JKR said transwomen aren’t women she must be using the wrong pronouns and being derogatory or saying people can’t change their gender, that’s terrible.

No it’s not that at all, she’s using all the right pronouns, being very respectful and supportive of people identifying in whatever way they wish but she has committed the heinous crime of stating the scientific fact that transwomen can’t change their biological sex and women shouldn’t be being fired from their jobs for saying so.

TWANW was never meant to be used to belittle or degrade anyone. It has come about as a counter argument to TWAW which is shoved down the throats of anyone who raises a concern to immediately shut down the argument. We can’t talk about our rights as women if we aren’t allowed to make any differentiation at all between us and TW.

Oh Benny.
You really think the majority of TW are not straight?
Oh dear.

Benny you seem like a good guy to me. You are arguing politely, and you are reading what people write to you - it amazing how often people don't.

You've suggested trans ID cards and third spaces. I think most people here would agree with that, but according to Stonewall and other trans authorities this will not do - it's acceptance without exception, TWAW with literally no difference at all between them and what they call 'cis' women (even though everyone in the world - including them - knows this isn't true).
What I hope you realise from contributing here is that feminists are not trans-haters, that they hope trans people find solutions to their problems. What they are not prepared to do is compromise women's safety even a tiny little bit in order to validate and accommodate transwomen. It's not women's duty to help men who wish they were women.

[quote MilleniumHallsWalledGarden]Robin1984

The same crime rate is linked here: twitter.com/NastySmurfette/status/1271526780961259520?s=20[/quote]
from the researcher

"The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality."

@robin1984

I have read through some of those replies, and i'm concerned about some of the voices cited. The 'intellectual dark web' are not credible academics, they are mainly grifters rebadging old conservative ideas about various inequality being due to some natural order of things, they are certainly not allies to feminism. On the other MN thread, someone cites the quilette, they are pro-eugenics and defend race science. I am not very comfortable if gender critical ideas sits well with those people.

So out of the twitter thread, you've picked out one comment that you disagree with about the 'intellectual dark web' and dismissed the rest of the thread on that basis. Out of all the posts and links on the MN thread you've picked one link which you don't like because of the site it's on (not because of the article itself, about which you make no comment) and dismissed all the other posts and links on that basis.

I thought you were genuinely looking for information, when what you were really looking for was an excuse to stay in your own little echo chamber and not venture out in case you came across some information which clashed with your world view and might make you doubt whether what you believe is right.

If you decide you do want to learn, you need to get out of your echo chamber. Think for yourself. Make your own decisions about what is right. Sometimes you will strongly disagree with people on some issues but agree with them on others. I don't think there's another person on the planet with whom I'd agree about absolutely everything.

BTW what's your evidence that Quillette 'are pro eugenics and defend race science'? I only know of them as a platform for free speech.

Can you link to these statistics that say they are the same level of threat?

Can you please link to any statistics that say they're not? Null hypothesis is that transwomen are just as violent as other males. Women here can certainly link to statistics that show that transwomen are massively more violent than women, but I'm sure you'll agree that the burden of proof should be on those who want to relax safeguarding standards. Please find me any study anywhere, disputed or otherwise, that purports to disprove the null hypothesis that transwomen are just as violent as any other adult males.