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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling responds to pathetic Labour MP

306 replies

BaronessSnippyPantsofCroneArmy · 28/06/2020 16:59

twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1277263814552100866?s=20

Bloody good woman

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NeurotrashWarrior · 29/06/2020 15:19

It's not great, we want clear answers, he can't, yet.

We support the people who are, such as Jk.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/06/2020 15:18

👏

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/06/2020 15:18

Wot Red said. ^

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2020 15:13

He doesn't have to say anything about trans rights at all just like he didn't have to publicly support self ID or sign any pledge.

Starmer was fighting an internal election at the time, amongst Labour members which gave a high proportion of TWAW advocates. It was an issue that was regarded important internally so he had to 'signal to the virtous' that he had a position on this.

If he hadn't would he have won the election as leader?

He may not have done.

Now the election is done, he could be a proper politician and go back on that - but he won't want to be seen to do an about face (if he indeed intends to do one which he may not) otherwise his political opponents will punish him for it. He has now started to create a situation where he could do eventually do a 'considered uturn' if he so chose. He could, equally, decide to double down. This is why keeping pressure up now is important.

Starmer has to try to balance the demands he has internally within the party with the demands of the general public which are very different to the Labour Party membership which is no longer particularly representative of wider public opinion.

I mean its really telling that the leader of a main political party cannot come out in support of the current law, which affects the rights of 50% of the population.

As it stands this is why the piggy backing of trans issues with lgb issues is hugely important.

There is widespread support for LGB rights amongst the population - both amongst Labour and Conservative voters. Views on LGB issues are aligned between the general population and party memberships.

As such until LGB issues are unpicked and separated from the T we will see this problem ongoing to a degree. The Conservatives have more leeway on this, but only to a point. (Its interesting to see trans issues trying to now piggy back BLM issues. It will be interesting to see how this partnership goes.)

The problem for women is their issues aren't critically important to either party. They are a second thought. Women's inherent problem is economic. As they are more vulnerable to economic pressures, they support more state intervention as a safety net than men do. This ultimately puts them in a position where its a choice between the least worst option when it comes to economics and the trans issue. At present the Conservatives aren't reliant on the female vote and women favour Labour because they support economic policy which harms them least. Labour need to be attracting more older males to win an election and can gamble that they can afford to take women voters for granted.

This naturally sucks, but unfortunately is a dynamic we have to recognise and act tactically upon. See my point about keeping up pressure.

I don't know how committed Starmer is to either women's rights or the trans issue. It seems its not his priority full stop. That might be depressing HOWEVER as it stands he has little actual power either anyway. He's not in government and his priority is asserting himself as labour leader to get to a position where his opinion influences the unions (he doesn't currently have that).

Johnson is preoccupied and its not a priority for him either.

So we have a few years of limbo to work in I suspect. This works to the favour of women as far as I can see, as long as we keep the pressure up. There are several issues on the verge of a legal challenge and on the verge of a potential scandal. And we have the LGB Alliance growing as an organisation.

I don't read Starmers actions as pro-trans. I don't read them as pro-woman either. But this doesn't mean it doesn't work for women either. That's up to us to work on.

I see an opportunity whether by accident or design and a window of opportunity before Starmer is ultimately forced to show his hand. And that is thanks to Starmer.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 29/06/2020 14:50

At the very least it gives more time to shine more sunlight on the false laws preached by stonewall and try to halt the insidious creep into schools of an ideology the majority do not accept.

Thelnebriati · 29/06/2020 14:12

He doesn't have to say anything about trans rights at all just like he didn't have to publicly support self ID or sign any pledge.

I mean its really telling that the leader of a main political party cannot come out in support of the current law, which affects the rights of 50% of the population.

RoyalCorgi · 29/06/2020 14:03

I agree with RedToothbrush. Starmer can't just come out and say the TRAs are talking bollocks, even though he must know they are. He has to play the long game. In the meantime, he has shifted the window of acceptable discourse just a little bit. He has said there must be a debate. That is a definite change from treating gender-critical women as beyond the pale.

Alsohuman · 29/06/2020 13:48

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think you’re right that he won’t have gone far enough for the TRAs.

He hasn't. Check out Owen Jones's Twitter feed.

I can’t. He blocked me ages ago. He’s a complete diva.
Divoc2020 · 29/06/2020 13:47

I think @RedToothBrush is right though - he has to play for the long game. Although there is only one side 'throwing bricks' as far as I can see, nothing will change if the current situation contines.

Starmer seems big on taking the heat out of things, facilitating debate and discussion and coming up with mutually 'acceptable' solutions. Ultimately, there is only a way forward if both 'sides' can claim they have 'won' (at least in some areas).

As we know, TRAs will hate having to sit around a (virtual) table and present their 'evidence/ research' and have a sensible, adult debate. Who would they even agree on to 'send' to represent them ?

There are some areas of the debate which I'm sure people would be less wedded to. For example, I'm less incensed about gender neutral loos than I am about transwomen in women's sport or on women's shortlists.

Bodies like Stonewall and Mermaids do need to be challenged via high profile court cases however and hopefully be stripped of their influence and shunned by big business as a result.
Starmer needs to do enough to roll things back (using legislation as an excuse/support) to reassure women and the GC but not so much that the TRAs can't feel that they are being listened to.

Of course, in reality, the best solution is to make a BIG FUSS of the narcisissts in the TRA movement to make them feel ever so successful and special, but to DO NOTHING of any significance or importance to advance their agenda. It's all about pandering to egos.

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2020 13:44

The tories need to drag the issue out over a prolonged period, rather than actually come up with a solution and to fix it, because the culture war demands the issue to be ongoing. The Tories don't want to fix issues. They want the culture war in order to cover for all the other dodgy things they are doing.

CaveMum · 29/06/2020 13:16

The issue with Starmer playing the long game is that it will play into the Tories hands - if BoJo brings this up at PMQs this week then Starmer will be a sitting duck.

Equally the Tories could very easily push a lot of stuff out now and in the next few months that will please feminists regarding stopping the reform of the GRA and when/if Labour later speak in agreement the Tories will be able to play the “we came up with it first/we’re more in touch with what women want” card.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/06/2020 12:44

I think you’re right that he won’t have gone far enough for the TRAs.

He hasn't. Check out Owen Jones's Twitter feed.

SophocIestheFox · 29/06/2020 12:30

Couldn’t love JKR any more than I do. Gaun yersel’, hen!

teawamutu · 29/06/2020 11:59

If there's a proper debate, he can allow himself to be persuaded by the arguments? Makes sense.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/06/2020 11:52

Yes the long game. Well said red. And yes, ongoing support for JK.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/06/2020 11:50

I think Starmer first and foremost want to increase the quality of members of his front bench.

In which case, any debates or analysis eg womens sports or Tavistock stuff will include rigorous scientific evidence, which has already been and is being collected.

I think he is strategic. I'm not saying he personally has the right opinion on this; I wonder if he has spent much time looking at it. Or he has and realised he has to throw it open to be critically publicly analysed for the woke to listen. He knows a large section of momentum types don't like him.

He was really interested by the triggernometry episode describing how the tories under Cameron really listened where labour weren't interested, when presented with the same set of research. It strikes me labour can't make this mistake again:

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2020 11:50

For Starmer to win an election he has to rebuild trust. Thats not an easy process.

He has to play a long game and not go for easy wins nor engage in too many confrontations.

He has to go down the nuance road. The 'it's a bit more complicated than that road'.

He's got to 'build a case' to 'sell to the jury' through the prolonged presentation and build up of evidence.

I could be proved wrong about where he ultimately wants policy in this area to go, but for the time being he's pushing for civilised conversations on this, which puts the ball very much back into the court of women to throw away the opportunity they are being given here.

Even comments about 'bricks being thrown' in a bothsiderism way, is something that is about 'proving it': to reference Maya Angelou.

I think it's a case of just keeping on making noise in a sensible, considered and intelligent manner.

Arguments that rely on emotion and ideology can move quicker than those that rely on logic, reason and considered thought. But the truth of material reality is something than can only be suppressed for a period before it eats itself in the weight of what it costs to maintain the facade.

I think we have little choice but to give it time as whoever pushes back on this whatever their political allegiance will have to do it bit by bit. Nature of the beast.

What's important now is to keep up the pressure and follow and support JKR.

Siablue · 29/06/2020 11:45

RedToothbrush that is an interesting perspective. I think you are right. It is a significant change in position.

There will be push back from the TRAs and if he had stood up and said I agree with JKR there would have been an almighty shit show.

He does also need a competent front bench. This was a massive problem for JC as he fell out with so many people he had a very limited field to choose from. KS is more competent and is trying to build bridges.

This is a toxic issue for the party but the debate has moved to the point where we can have a debate. Many people are not aware of this and they are in the areas Labour needs to win back.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/06/2020 11:36

I'm not political and it's not my language but RedToothBrush has described it really well.

This can't be a single party position. As currently it's vaguely Tory = we side with women and the others = TWAW.

So less critical thinking Tory hating types are going to go with the others.

Yes he's sitting on the fence personally speaking, but he's answered it well by not picking "a side" and throwing it back to be debated, critically as a cross party problem.

He's right that it's a football and women are being battered by it within the current situation. And being framed as fussing feminists aka not important. Or siding with the religious right which we know causes further issues, as we've seen within the GC movement.

I was annoyed he put women second in every answer but at the same time, I recognise someone who's potentially being very clever about appearing neutral.

Thelnebriati · 29/06/2020 11:34

Starmer did support a pledge that demands self ID, just not the same one the others signed (the one that called various organisations ''hate groups''.)
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200213092010/twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1227878854183792642" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200213092010/twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1227878854183792642

He also told Piers he thinks there should be a debate about womens sports, even though thats an exception allowed by both The Equality Act and the GRA.
Even with a GRC, a man who has transitioned does not have the legal right to participate in women's sports.

Destinysdaughter · 29/06/2020 11:31

I actually cried when I just read her tweets. She so gets it! I know a lot of us wondered what her view was on all this and it's obvious she's been following this debate and her courage has brought it out into the mainstream. So grateful to her.

Needmoresleep · 29/06/2020 11:24

I think Starmer first and foremost want to increase the quality of members of his front bench. He can tolerate a variety of views, as he recognises that the party includes a diversity of views. However he does want members of his team to possess a level of political nous. People who can avoid foot in the mouth moments.

Its political stupidity that wont be tolerated not policies or leanings. This way he is not accused of a witch hunt. A more talented team should then be able to develop policies without resorting to knee jerk or slogans. Or that must be the hope.

Alsohuman · 29/06/2020 11:22

It’s refreshing to have any leader who will do interviews. I think you’re absolutely right @RedToothBrush. Starmer’s an excellent strategist.

noblegiraffe · 29/06/2020 11:19

It’s refreshing to have a Labour leader who’ll actually do interviews.

teawamutu · 29/06/2020 11:16

I thought so too. Baby steps back to sanity, hopefully.