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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Glinner thing

359 replies

JohnnyW2001 · 27/06/2020 15:12

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to @glinner's post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Nephthia · 27/06/2020 20:44

@JackiF

Thanks for the article link Nephthia. Placemarking to find it again later. Flowers
No worries! :)
WomaninBoots · 27/06/2020 20:41

@ChloeCrocodile

OP, even if we accept the idea of male brains / female brains (I don’t) can you explain the process by which a brain ends up in the wrong body? My understanding is that the brain develops as part of the body of a foetus. All the body parts (including the brain) develop from a single zygote. They don’t form separately and then get put together at birth!

The only way the “born in the wrong body” narrative works is if you mean that human souls are sexed and sometimes God puts the a soul into the wrong body. That is a totally unscientific belief. (And what kind of God is so rubbish that he makes that sort of mistake on a regular basis?!)

Yes. Exactly this first paragraph.

By what mechanism? At what pont during the development of the embryo do the cells that become the central nervous system go on a completely different sexed pathway than the cells in the rest of the body? They don't do they? They keep their XX or XY chromosomes and swim in exactly the same hormonal soup as every other cell in that developing human...

Even if there is some malfunction in brain development that means a man's brain image has some more female typical patterns to it or whatever the studies show... I still don't want his dick in the women's showers at the gym. Or his rapey behaviour in a women's prison. Or his physically stronger body in women's sports.

FFS. It's not hard. It really isnt.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 27/06/2020 20:35

@JohnnyW2001

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to *@glinner*'s post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

Kewl.

So why don’t doctors use brain imaging as a diagnostic tool for gender incongruence? And why don’t trans people campaign for that?

And how do you explain detransitioners? Because more FtMtF detransitioners appear on YouTube all the time.

Livpool · 27/06/2020 20:30

But OP I work in IT (assume male brain?!) but I have a female body (gave birth and everything so not just my imagination!). But then I like wearing make up (female brain) bit often wear trousers (male brain).

I am so confused, sweetie

DickKerrLadies · 27/06/2020 20:25

I was going to add something sarcastic but you know what, I can't be arsed. My poor lady brain is too tired from thinking all those womanly thoughts.

(Yeah, I know, I can't help myself. All I have is questions and sarcasm and the OP doesn't appear to be allowing questions at this lecture)

JackiF · 27/06/2020 20:25

Thanks for the article link Nephthia. Placemarking to find it again later. Flowers

ChloeCrocodile · 27/06/2020 20:22

OP, even if we accept the idea of male brains / female brains (I don’t) can you explain the process by which a brain ends up in the wrong body? My understanding is that the brain develops as part of the body of a foetus. All the body parts (including the brain) develop from a single zygote. They don’t form separately and then get put together at birth!

The only way the “born in the wrong body” narrative works is if you mean that human souls are sexed and sometimes God puts the a soul into the wrong body. That is a totally unscientific belief. (And what kind of God is so rubbish that he makes that sort of mistake on a regular basis?!)

DickKerrLadies · 27/06/2020 20:20

OP not back, then? Shame.

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 27/06/2020 20:20

I reached my conclusions about this based on science and experience.

I don't care what you think OP.

prolefeed · 27/06/2020 20:19

Johnny, mate. This is a parenting forum. Did mummy talk to you about the birds and the bees?
My tiny little lady brain has exploded, obv.
What medical tests would you instigate on patients applying for GRC to prove what type of brain they had? Would we do this at birth (hahaha) to replace the much simpler genital identification and that would be put on the birth certificate? (Ethically that’s a bit dubious as they don’t like scanning newborns brains - even dc3 who was brain damaged at birth had to wait until day 12) or would it be at age 12 after some degree of socialization?
Clearly everyone would need a scan to determine their true authentic self? So that all these pesky science men trapped in female bodies can be forced to use the men’s?
What happens if you disagree? Will all the people who now identify as trans be called cis because they agree with their brain scan? And all the people that think cis is a made up bollocks word and that gender is nonsense be forced to identify as trans?
It’s so complicated. My poor woman brain.

Bananabixfloof · 27/06/2020 20:13

@HopeClearwater

7 pages in and he’s not back yet?

I’m very much looking forward to the Positive Ladybrain Scan Certificate, Let Me Into The Ladies Bogs With My Ladydick outcome here, although I expect someone will actually try to invent some kind of dodgy machine to provide such a result to the hairy-handed TRAs in exchange for lots of money....

Is it not ladydique? More umm feminine sounding or summat.
ErrolTheDragon · 27/06/2020 20:13

All I know is that when I was a teenage Girl, my school wouldn't let girls do technical drawing because girl brains couldn't cope with it

DD had some trouble when in the first term of her engineering degree, for some perverse reason, they made them do some old-fashioned TD instead of going straight to the CAD software... she was too short for the drawing boards.
Similarly, she needed the women's screwdriver ... twice as long for extra leverage.

Nephthia · 27/06/2020 20:12

Hello :)

I actually had a look at the paper you've listed and it also says this "We have reviewed the literature on brain imaging studies in vivo in people with gender incongruence. To the best of our knowledge, we have covered the entire structural and functional literature. We would like to stress that the main constraints we found were not only that there are STILL ONLY A FEW STUDIES ON THE SUBJECT but also that techniques, design, and samples are very diverse across studies. To reach a clear picture of the brains of people with gender incongruence, this should be overcome in future studies by avoiding the use of mixed samples with respect to age, onset age of feelings of gender incontinence, and sexual orientation." The actual paper you have used to back up your claim "There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one." actually contradicts your statement.

Being a woman is more than just our brains. It is our brains in our female bodies and our female experiences that come with it. Females get mistreated, raped, mutilated, trafficked, sold, used, and abused because we are in our female body. From the moment we are born until we die some of us around the world are subjected to untold punishments because we are girls, women, females. So, even IF, and that is a big IF, science one day comes with conclusive proof that there is such a thing as a female brain in a male body, those men still can't be women. Apart from the fact that their genetic code is that of the male of the species, they can't experience what it is like to be women like we do every day of our lives.

At the end of the day why can't those people who feel they are in a wrong body be the best they can be as themselves? they can never know what it feels to be a woman, heck I don't claim to know what it is like to be them even IF they had a female brain. So why can't they fight and stand up for their own rights as transwomen and feel the need to take ours? the ones that WE women died for? (and still do in some places)

Since I realised what has been happening and started reading more I also started following a number of transwomen on twitter that are actually very vocal about being males and strong advocates of women's rights. If the female brain theory is correct why do those transwomen don't feel the same need to gaslight us with the "transwomen are women" mantra? I personally do not have a problem with trans people and I believe they need to have safe spaces and their rights protected like every other human being. Why does it have to be ours though? why do we have to be called "non-male" or "menstruators" or "cervix havers" or "cis" like we're a subset of our own sex? it is humiliating to be spoken to in this way. Yet if anyone dares to mention that they can't be female when they are intact males you see comments like " you're a pervert if you only define people by their genitals"....

I am not trying to make political points either. I actually had neutral opinions on the subject until I saw some of the things that Graham was posting and followed the stories and went down the rabbit hole. Women like JK Rowling stood up for us and was subjected to the vilest abuse on social media..why? nothing of what she said was transphobic or abusive in any way....because deep down inside, female brain on not, this boils down to misogyny :(

Lastly, since we're talking about science papers here is one for you to read

link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s12129-020-09877-8?sharing_token=Wju7pagbpWZw0t_qJTx1T_e4RwlQNchNByi7wbcMAY4m7bhVvT3i3HzK1MtbR0sAj3X6fKY8SAYEvIodxn7BFrNv6ieSienYmepjKKDkBglnsxWn6NeO6s4Zo5C6m_gL8phpEE2XN5aJvO10kfSpt9ram2k3vTA8YRK1yqMWOY0%3D

ErrolTheDragon · 27/06/2020 20:08

Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

Well, there's one - in all the cells (bar blood cells), if you looked at the pairs of sex chromosomes you'd see a clear difference between the male and female brains.

Maybe you need to be used to working at the Ångstrom scale to think of it as a 'physical trait' though?Grin

JunoJigglewick · 27/06/2020 20:06

Girl brains and boy brains, eh? Kind of like how we can "feel" like a man or a woman without being able to define what that means...

All I know is that when I was a teenage Girl, my school wouldn't let girls do technical drawing because girl brains couldn't cope with it. Allegedly. Based on nothing but stereotypes and prejudice. But your science OP is suggesting that stereotyping and prejudice is ok?

Nah.

FloralBunting · 27/06/2020 20:01

In conclusion, no.

NewNewt · 27/06/2020 20:00

AND, the brain is PLASTIC!

HopeClearwater · 27/06/2020 19:54

7 pages in and he’s not back yet?

I’m very much looking forward to the Positive Ladybrain Scan Certificate, Let Me Into The Ladies Bogs With My Ladydick outcome here, although I expect someone will actually try to invent some kind of dodgy machine to provide such a result to the hairy-handed TRAs in exchange for lots of money....

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/06/2020 19:49

Omg I can't be arsed to read this whole thread as the opening post was so tedious but I bloody hope someone pointed out that Rippon does say there are sex differences in the brain.

They're very different between the sexes.

You just get the basic brain according to the sex you're conceived as.

CatandtheFiddle · 27/06/2020 19:47

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay

And stop with the homophobia. No gay man or lesbian in my family or of my acquaintance would "rather avoid" being gay.

Totally homophobic statement.

CatandtheFiddle · 27/06/2020 19:45

Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

Nope. Wrong.

And I have a PhD to prove it. You really need to think twice before patronising highly-educated & articulate readers of a feminist forum.

JemimaShore · 27/06/2020 19:42

@motorcyclenumptiness

sharing of science Are you Dr Hfuhruhurr, op?
Grin
wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 27/06/2020 19:34

@InionEile

Soooo... let me get this straight, Johnny-Come-Lately:
  1. Binary male/female sex is a myth, a social construct. Sex is a rainbow, genderbread spectrum, right?
  2. There are male brains and female brains and some people with female brains get born in a male body and vice versa , right?

How do you reconcile these two ideas? They’re both inherent to the trans rights movement but completely contradict each other.

Life is pretty simple for us gender critical feminists. Sex is real, gender is a construct, women (adult human females) experience oppression based on our reproductive biology and the social constructs the patriarchy built to control it. Amazing. How can our fragile simpering female brains have come up with such a logical, coherent ideology all by ourselves? simpers

Nicely put
motorcyclenumptiness · 27/06/2020 19:34

sharing of science
Are you Dr Hfuhruhurr, op?

PumbaasCucumbas · 27/06/2020 19:30

@7Days

Womens rights came about as a correction against being the smaller weaker less violent half of humanity who bear the children

Nothing to do with brains.

Biology is real
Sometimes it matters
Shore up safeguarding

After that crack on and let's all live our best lives

This ^^
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