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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Glinner thing

359 replies

JohnnyW2001 · 27/06/2020 15:12

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to @glinner's post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

OP posts:
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stella47 · 28/06/2020 14:07

"I make no claim to have any idea how to best address this issue, or how women should or shouldn't feel about it. That's really not for me to have any opinion on, and I fully understand that. Very happy to get out of the way."

Ermmm, it was you that started a thread on it . . .

TheId · 28/06/2020 14:06

If it was 'appropriate' for you to post at all then it is merely common decency that you reply

TheId · 28/06/2020 14:03

I think it's a bit unreasonable of you to post and piss off then only reply to one seemingly randomly chosen post.

Either you don't understand how talk boards work (clue is in the question- you are supposed to have a conversation) or you don't think talking to women is worth your time and effort.

stella47 · 28/06/2020 14:02

I enjoyed this, in reply to Datun :)

"This is a serious thread about an important issue that impacts our lives as women and you want to hijack it by picking through something I said. If you want to attack me please start another thread as what you are doing here is undermining the women who are contributing to the discussion. Do you have any views on the topic at hand?"
Just awesome. Datun, do you have any views on the topic at hand? Because if you do, you could have said! :)

merrymouse · 28/06/2020 14:02

I'll just say I read and took onboard what you wrote, and it made me think.

If there is one thing I would like you to understand, it is that women don't need rights because of their brains, they need rights because of their sex, regardless of how they identify.

Your argument about right and wrong brains is irrelevant to the need for sex based rights.

titchy · 28/06/2020 14:01

So why didn't you post on the thread he started? Or perhaps PM him?

JohnnyW2001 · 28/06/2020 14:00

@titchy

I'm a man, responding directly to one sentence another man wrote. And that is all. I wasn't addressing "women" or even a single woman (unless Glinner is now claiming to identify as female, but that seems unlikely)

Odd you should choose a predominantly female website to not address women? Wonder why you did that?

I simply followed Glinner here. That is all.
OP posts:
JohnnyW2001 · 28/06/2020 13:58

@TheId

How marvellous of you to pop back on and let all us girls know that we are wasting our breath as you were not talking to us because you only talk to other men.

Can you not see at all the staggering misogyny in not addressing any of the scientific challenge in this thread because it was posted by women

Biscuit
I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect me to reply to 220+ messages, and I don't think it's really appropriate for me to, either. It's a bit ironic that I was literally replying to one such message as you were writing your reply, though.
OP posts:
titchy · 28/06/2020 13:58

I'm a man, responding directly to one sentence another man wrote. And that is all. I wasn't addressing "women" or even a single woman (unless Glinner is now claiming to identify as female, but that seems unlikely)

Odd you should choose a predominantly female website to not address women? Wonder why you did that?

TheId · 28/06/2020 13:58

You came on a feminist talk board posting patronising mansplaining pseudoscience bollocks just so you could get hold of glinner. Seriously.

I believe he has a website if you want to have a private chat to him about your staggering scientific insights.

merrymouse · 28/06/2020 13:57

But it isn't possible to be born in the wrong body.

There is no 'right' brain for a particular kind of body.

JohnnyW2001 · 28/06/2020 13:56

@AsMuchUseAsAMarzipanDildo

I could point out that the OP clearly hasn’t read the actual papers they linked to, as what they show is differences between the brains of women and transwomen. Surely that kind of debunks the entire premise of their argument? 🤦‍♀️

Never mind that human brains are influenced by many, many factors - not least the gendered societal stereotypes that transgender ideology promotes. Or that even if we buy this bullshit about having a woman’s brain in a man’s body, that does absolutely nothing to address the fact that humans are binary. The existence of rare variations does nothing to disprove that. I think it’s FondOfBeetles who says something along the lines of “A baby sadly born without a fully formed leg is not taken as proof that humans aren’t bipedal”.

The “fact” that humans have gendered brains still doesn’t change the empirical reality that violent and sexual crime is overwhelmingly committed by men/penis havers. Or that so much of women’s oppression is rooted in the assumption that they have a vagina and the ability to procreate.

But let’s face it, they won’t be back. They’re not interested in hearing from us silly mums. All they wanted to do was rock up, patronise the ignorant “Karen’s“ with their wokeness and fuck off into the sunset, feeling all virtuous.

Thanks for this. You make some great points. (I'll ignore the weird personal insults at the end.) I don't really believe there's a place for me in this argument, so I'll just say I read and took onboard what you wrote, and it made me think. Thanks.
OP posts:
TheId · 28/06/2020 13:54

How marvellous of you to pop back on and let all us girls know that we are wasting our breath as you were not talking to us because you only talk to other men.

Can you not see at all the staggering misogyny in not addressing any of the scientific challenge in this thread because it was posted by women

Biscuit
JohnnyW2001 · 28/06/2020 13:51

So... I'm a man, responding directly to one sentence another man wrote. And that is all. I wasn't addressing "women" or even a single woman (unless Glinner is now claiming to identify as female, but that seems unlikely).

It's scientifically unsound to claim that all trans people are part of "a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body". And that is all.

I make no claim to have any idea how to best address this issue, or how women should or shouldn't feel about it. That's really not for me to have any opinion on, and I fully understand that. Very happy to get out of the way.

OP posts:
stella47 · 28/06/2020 13:42

Good heavens, that looks very long. For some reason, as part of my Chemistry A level I had to learn to summarise a scientific article in 140 words. Just saying.

Furx · 28/06/2020 13:23

@TorkTorkBam

I believe they found the same area in anorexics (or that's where it was first detected). People who obsess about their body overdevelop this part of the brain. It happens a lot, for example with London taxi drivers whose brains are noticeably different after they have done The Knowledge.
That rings a bell, thank you.
12boo · 28/06/2020 10:19

Asmuchuseasamarzipandildo
Amen

AsMuchUseAsAMarzipanDildo · 28/06/2020 08:25

I could point out that the OP clearly hasn’t read the actual papers they linked to, as what they show is differences between the brains of women and transwomen. Surely that kind of debunks the entire premise of their argument? 🤦‍♀️

Never mind that human brains are influenced by many, many factors - not least the gendered societal stereotypes that transgender ideology promotes. Or that even if we buy this bullshit about having a woman’s brain in a man’s body, that does absolutely nothing to address the fact that humans are binary. The existence of rare variations does nothing to disprove that. I think it’s FondOfBeetles who says something along the lines of “A baby sadly born without a fully formed leg is not taken as proof that humans aren’t bipedal”.

The “fact” that humans have gendered brains still doesn’t change the empirical reality that violent and sexual crime is overwhelmingly committed by men/penis havers. Or that so much of women’s oppression is rooted in the assumption that they have a vagina and the ability to procreate.

But let’s face it, they won’t be back. They’re not interested in hearing from us silly mums. All they wanted to do was rock up, patronise the ignorant “Karen’s“ with their wokeness and fuck off into the sunset, feeling all virtuous.

Alabamawhirly1 · 28/06/2020 08:16

I would say that generally speaking - men are women are different mentally. Men tend to be more sex driven and more violent. Women tend to be more empethetic and more natural parents. Obvs this is not based on scans or science, just observation and could be down to nature, nurture or both.

But...... If we accept that as true, how come transwomen still show the same high sex motivation and high aggression and violence as men - if they have lady brains. I also can't see much empathy in them either.

borntobequiet · 28/06/2020 08:11

Glinner doesn’t spew hate and bile. But thanks for the image of Trump on Mumsnet.
AIBU to build a wall my neighbours don’t want.
Relationships: I like grabbing women by the pussy, why do they object?
Style and Beauty: What startling shade of fake tan is acceptable?
Pedants’ corner: How should I pronounce China?
Etc, etc. Ugh.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 28/06/2020 08:10

Yup Erish, the idea that gender is both biologically innate and culturally relative is just one of the things that makes me think these people are too stupid to argue with.

BaronessBrighterThanYou · 28/06/2020 08:01

Just another Saturday night then?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/06/2020 07:49

He won't be coming back.

DickKerrLadies · 28/06/2020 07:47

I was hoping the OP had come back over night - oh well.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/06/2020 07:21

^Say a “male” brain lights up in response to football on tv. Football very manly, lots of men, sports, etc..
^^
^What happens if that man moves to the US, where soccer is a female sport? Does the brain now light up in response to soccer and become female, as that’s what girls like?

Yes, exactly. I've heard liking football/soccer claimed as a sign of gender dysphoria both ways in children depending which country they live in.

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