The Glinner thing

*This idea about female brain in a male body fails to take any account of how that brain and body developed all from one original cell. It's not some assembly line where the wrong brain gets added at the end!

If there really were such clear and obvious differences between male and female brains then we wouldn't need bloody self ID would we? Just get in the scanner and check 'oh dear looks you have a bad case of lady brain sir. Off to the gender reassignment clinic for you'*

This. Exactly this.

We are all born in the body that was dictated by our conception.

The concept of a lady brain is no different to the argument that I was born in the wrong body because my eyes are green and I feel they should have been blue or that I should have been 5 inches taller.

You come here OP and try to spin pseudo science to us on the assumption that we are incapable of seeing it for what it is, whilst failing yourself to use the correct terminology (brain elasticity FFS) and thus demonstrating you lack a fundamental understanding of the subject matter your trying to "educate" us about.

How patronising....

Telling children that they might have been 'born into the wrong body' is both scientifically illiterate and dangerous. It endangers their mental wellbeing, physical health and fertility. Do you honestly think it's a good idea that a girl who doesn't happily fit into current gender stereotypes, or who is uncomfortable with her developing body and resulting objectification, may be told that the problem is with her body and that it can and should be fixed?

There are many sad young women now realising that they've been sold this dangerous lie by people who should have protected them, and are now permanently mutilated and/or sterile. When all the time there was nothing wrong with either their body or their brain, it was our gendered, sexist society that needed fixing.

Any differences that are actually observed in scanning studies will indeed be due to plasticity ie adaptations to the environment including the patriarchal environment.

As for 'Monkeys don't have society' PMSL at this. Monkeys have very clear dominance relationships and they definitely do have a social order that would influence brain plasticity.

If indeed there is any study showing male female differences at 24h (mind boggles at how such a study would be ethically or practically conducted on newborns) then it's still subject to environment ie intrauterine environment eg a female fetus and a male fetus produce different hormone levels in utero.

i do wonder what the OPs of threads like this thing they're going to achieve

can they seriously believe that if they explain things to me calmly and carefully I'll suddenly be delighted about the prospect of having a poo in the next cubical to my male boss at work?

By the way, do you have a beard?

What a load of codswallop you talk OP. Evidently, someone who merely identifies as a scientist. You don't understand what you are talking about.

Scanning Dead Salmon in fMRI Machine Highlights Risk of Red Herrings

Some years ago, Dr.Craig Bennett bought a dead Atlantic Salmon, put it in the fMRI machine, showed it pictures of humans in social situations and asked the dead salmon what emotions it thought they displayed. www.wired.com/2009/09/fmrisalmon/
"When they got around to analyzing the voxel (think: 3-D or "volumetric" pixel) data, the voxels representing the area where the salmon's tiny brain sat showed evidence of activity. In the fMRI scan, it looked like the dead salmon was actually thinking about the pictures it had been shown."

The OP appears to think he can prove anything if he claims it was in a brain scan.

Last time I checked rapists used their dicks and superior physical strength whilst benefitting from a patriarchal society that fails to adequately prosecute. Not their brains.

Blessed be the menz

I love this !

Oh and dear OP

Women are under no obligation to ‘be kind’ to anyone.

Also, you can present as many ‘arguments’ as you like, but we still don’t want men in our spaces. Now be a dear and fuck off.

This is a serious thread about an important issue that impacts our lives as women and you want to hijack it by picking through something I said.

It’s not though, is it? It’s not a ‘serious thread’ - OP hasn’t joined in. And it’s not an ‘important issue’ because male brain/female brain/wrong body is rubbish.

So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And yes, even if such a distinction actually existed, this might make sense if those brains, and only those brains, were in the bodies of transgender people. OP is saying you'd be able to accurately diagnose someone as transgender or not by a specific brain type in a specific body type.
So they wouldn't be able to self-id.
Transphobic much, OP?

i do think you came here to offer a reasoned debate and i want to pay you the same courtesy. Here is my take on this:

i very much believe in the idea of feeling as though you are born in the wrong body - but i am not at all convinced by the science of 'male brain, female brain.' However, i am a Christian, and the very cornerstone of our faith is the idea of an essence of self being separate from the physical body - a soul, that lives on in heaven after we die...

DON'T GO!!!!

however, i do not see why that would necessarily manifest itself as male/ female identities. I think about what would have happened had i been born into a male body - i think i may have been gay, as i am married to a lovely man, but also, i may have been a straight man as i think i have a bisexual side i have never explored (but i am fine with that.)

I love martial arts and action movies, i do kickboxing; i would still do that in a male body. I never wear make up or dresses, but i do like jewellery - yup, can still be a man. I love children despite not having any myself - yup, that describes my husband too so definitely still something that can be attributed to a man.....

However, in a man's body i might have walked through life very differently. Knowing that i was physically more powerful than over half of the population. confident that society would put me first, my needs before others, that as a man i would be more likely to succeed. I may even have had children, if i had found a wife willing to have them for me.

So i am sorry, but your argument does not hold up. What about all the women with 'men's brains' who are perfectly happy in their physical self and vice versa this could definitely be me! I don't think it is down to men's brain's and ladies brains, but down to society, where it puts us according to our role in reproduction and physical abilities, that makes us unhappy with our physical selves.

Does that make sense?

Such a stupid shit argument that is very easily demolished:

As others have already pointed out each and every cell in a woman's body has two X chromosomes and each and every cell in a man's body has an X and a Y. So a mans brain cells are chromosomally male ie all men have a male brain.

This idea about female brain in a male body fails to take any account of how that brain and body developed all from one original cell. It's not some assembly line where the wrong brain gets added at the end!

If there really were such clear and obvious differences between male and female brains then we wouldn't need bloody self ID would we? Just get in the scanner and check 'oh dear looks you have a bad case of lady brain sir. Off to the gender reassignment clinic for you'

FFS

I did not need my science PhD or my medical degree to understand these matters by the way although I do have one of each.

Oooo! I just found the celeriac picture! I won't use it, as that might not be considered "kind".

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again.

Don't be so dimwitted. The fact that there may be people whose brains don't conform to the absolute norm for their sex doesn't mean they have been 'born in the wrong body'. Brains don't get allocated to a body. They are not separate from the body, they are part of it.

If my cat likes to bury bones and chase sticks, does that mean its brain was accidentally put into a dog? Even if its brain somehow displayed a few biological similarities to a dog's brain, it still wouldn't mean it was 'meant' to be a dog (or could ever become one).

You only get one body and one brain. They aren't mix and match!

Another little female brain here with a PhD in biochemistry.

So I think I get science.

I don't want self ID to result in a situation in which pretty much any predatory bloke out there could gain free pass into women's and girls places by stating that they are a woman. And women being silenced to question their entry into such places for the fear of being prosecuted for hate speech.

The trans issue is complex and I have a lot of sympathy for people who suffer with understanding their gender identity, whatever the root cause may be. My red line however is and will remain that legislation in this area should not result in unintended consequences that threaten the safety of women and girls.

I just can't get my head around the lack of self awareness of the Wrong Side of History crowd. If women are losing this fight, it reflects the structural sexism and misogyny in our society. That you are reinforcing by coming here to talk over us in a female centred space.

Trans activism is a male rights movement, supported by lots of other males without a thought for women and girls. There are always women who calculate that their best option is to go with what the men say, they have done it throughout history.

It may amaze you, but in this little corner of the internet lots of us women here are saying no. We're not interested in your epic mansplain and your self-important righteousness. We have rights, and we're not giving them up without a fight.

So men can have brains that look like women's brains? And vice versa?
Gosh, it's enough to make you conclude that there's no such thing as a clear distinction between man-brains or lady-brains!

Men are on average taller than women. Do you think a tall woman is a man?

*Seriously this is funnier and funnier.

I had the 'opportunity to be kind', but chose to be patronising instead?

I'm going to stick my neck out here, and say that you are the only person on the entire planet who is shocked.*

This is a serious thread about an important issue that impacts our lives as women and you want to hijack it by picking through something I said.

If you want to attack me please start another thread as what you are doing here is undermining the women who are contributing to the discussion.

Do you have any views on the topic at hand?

Science 🤣🤣

OP you are giving me a much needed laugh today. Thank you.

“a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

How does ‘having a female brain’ in a male body (or vice versa) mean it’s ‘possible to be born in the wrong body’?

It’s not your body that is wrong. It is restrictive attitudes to gender and ‘rules’ of what it means to be male or female that make your experience in the world uncomfortable, leading to dysphoria.

If we all (society) gave up giving a crap about what a ‘female brain’ or ‘innate essence of gender’ was, everyone would be happier.

Dress, do, be, live however pleases you. Leave the law alone and stop trespassing on language to make it fit a minority whose feelings are no more or less important than anyone else’s.

Just testing.

Blueblue, men used to wear heels for horse riding. And blue was for girls in Victorian times, while pink was a milder red, for little boys.
So obviously liking to wear pink and high heels is very male-brained!

Funny how the "listening, compassion and empathy" is always a one way street for women. We must listen and empathise with any man who demands access to our sports, our awards, our places where we undress and are vulnerable, our naive and impressionable children no matter what risks they pose.

But listening to the experiences, feelings and wishes of women is never on the agenda. Funny that.

And you had the opportunity to kindly educate me but instead you decided to patronise. And we both know that you know your doing it

Shit is this another of those mental load things? We have to repeatedly educate anyone who says so?

Why is this our job? You can obviously read and there are (as has been helpfully pointed out previously) kajillions of threads on fwr about this subject and many more. Feel free to read any.

Thanks for your input but still no from the women.