Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Glinner thing

359 replies

JohnnyW2001 · 27/06/2020 15:12

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to @glinner's post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee · 27/06/2020 16:45

Ooh yes Robot

Why indeed have they not got up a petition to get all the trans folk special gender brain scans??

I agree someone needs to get onto that right away given that this lady brain condition is such an irrefutable scientific fact according to all mainstream scientists.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 27/06/2020 16:44

Another preposterous OP who produces a stinky pile of faeces and expects their mummy us to clean it up for them.

The most striking thing about these ploppers is their irredeemable sexism.

Kennebec · 27/06/2020 16:43

The close to the argument about the "right side of history" brings to mind a recent Oliver Burkeman column:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/jun/21/the-wrong-side-of-history-has-become-a-crowded-place-time-to-rethink

The real hazard, though, comes when the idea is used by contemporary pontificators to avoid confronting the possibility that they, themselves, might be wrong. Once you’re confident of history’s position, you needn’t ask whether your critics might have a point; you can dismiss them as anachronistic fuddy-duddies who haven’t caught up with the latest advance toward moral truth. The irony is that it is a good idea to reflect on the judgment of history – not to reinforce your opinions, but rather to unsettle them, and infuse them with a dose of humility. The past is full of periods when people endorsed ridiculous or horrifying views, but they evidently didn’t think so at the time. Why should any of us be immune, just because our time happens to be now?

AyeRobot · 27/06/2020 16:42

@JohnnyW2001, I really think you're onto something here & that all the recent strife can be put to bed by using brain scans to identify those who are really trans. Miles better than just going with self declaration as anyone could do that & so doesn't seem very sensible to me.

Do you know if there's a petition running to lobby the government as part of the proposed GRA reform? If not, I might set one up myself.

Exciting!

Wondersense · 27/06/2020 16:40

It really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what I think they feel, what they claim feel. What matters is that women get the right to keep our spaces. There are very good reasons for that. Let's suppose that there is science to suppoet that a man says or feels like a woman in his head. Ok. That's one thing, but since it is only a claim, and claims can be made by absolutely anyone, how on earth do you keep out predatory men from accessing spaces designed for women & girls?

The activists would argue that those trans women aren't safe using make changing rooms.....well ok.....but that's for MEN to sort out. It's THEIR problem. They need to bloody well stop harassing men who seem effeminate. It should not be up to women to open up our spaces and make them vulnerable to dangers & risks they were designed to keep out!!

WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee · 27/06/2020 16:40

It's just such piss poor pseudo science

The facts are that if you got a neuroradiologist to look at 100 random CT or MRI scans they would not be able to sort them out correctly into male and female just from looking.

All the supposed studies have not generated enough reliable differences for the radiologist to be able to accurately sort because any differences are tiny and highly variable
In all cases if any such tiny differences do exist they are likely to be due to plasticity related to the different hormonal environment of a female body and the different social environment of being a woman.

What we do know is that from birth female babies are handled and spoken to differently than male babies. It starts from birth.

I am going to continue to go on 'has penis' and 'does not have penis' as my criteria for if someone is male or female.

noblegiraffe · 27/06/2020 16:40

Saying that some men aren’t real men because they have the wrong sort of brain seems particularly regressive?

TeaAndStrumpets · 27/06/2020 16:39

Oh god, I blame it on too much Lego at an impressionable age.

My grandson (age 10) makes up Lego people by swapping heads and bodies etc.

OP is playing a game. Aww.

VaggieMight · 27/06/2020 16:36

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at poster's request.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/06/2020 16:36

Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Try it out for a change yourself. Women and girls deserve compassion and empathy too, or is that an alien notion to you?

LillianBland · 27/06/2020 16:35

I wonder what brain all the non-binary people have.

I’m going to assume a purple brain if a colour chart is anything to by and men have blue brains, while ladies have pink. 😁

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/06/2020 16:32

Does anyone remember the programme channel 4 made for Bergdorf a couple of years ago?

I do. Quite a watch.

Thelnebriati · 27/06/2020 16:31

Brains can have a sex but not sex organs.

FantaOra · 27/06/2020 16:29

Does anyone remember the programme channel 4 made for Bergdorf a couple of years ago? There was footage of the Bristol meeting at the JamJar in Bristol which was surrounded and occupied by angry people and Venice Allen was shown in a Cafe explaining to a she didn't agree men could change sex to a disappointed bergdorf.

Bergdorf went off to a clinic in Germany that scanned brains for supposed traits, and of course the result was pretty feeble. There is a desperate need for people to believe this and there are therefore people that will sell their research and scan services in a way that both exploits and bolsters this theory.

It's all a bit sad really.

Collidascope · 27/06/2020 16:27

@AyeRobot

Does that mean that brain scans could be done before issuing GRCs? Or maybe before issuing birth certificates?

That would resolve a lot of the current tensions, I would have thought.

Yeah, that was my thought too. No need for self ID if brain scans can determine a male or female brain, is there? I wonder what brain all the non-binary people have.
WellIWasInTheNeighbourhoo · 27/06/2020 16:27

Mumsnet is really getting slammed with MRA trolls today isnt it.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 27/06/2020 16:27

@ItsLateHumpty

For OP, and anyone really...

I’m as thick as pig shit. No degrees, not a scientist or biologist, or infact even a mom or mum.

But you did say “To be brief...”

And you know what, I already knew that was a lying lie because men are bombastic.

Right up until they meet an intellect they weren’t expecting where reverse ferret (or in this case dump and run) are employed.

So you’re just a noisey trouser trumpet and I’ll be moving along.

Thanks for the smell.

Grin
MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 27/06/2020 16:26

@sadlandlonely2020

*Seriously this is funnier and funnier.

I had the 'opportunity to be kind', but chose to be patronising instead?

I'm going to stick my neck out here, and say that you are the only person on the entire planet who is shocked.*

This is a serious thread about an important issue that impacts our lives as women and you want to hijack it by picking through something I said.

If you want to attack me please start another thread as what you are doing here is undermining the women who are contributing to the discussion.

Do you have any views on the topic at hand?

Welcome to MN. This is FWR and we don't have to be nice or kind here, or indeed, professional. Nor do we have to take ploppers who post debunked pseudo-science as fact seriously.

The answer from women remains 'no'.

VickyEadieofThigh · 27/06/2020 16:26

What Datun said.

InAPickleGodDamn · 27/06/2020 16:26

I'm not a scientist but I have worked in MH for over 20 years (not in gender clinics).

I don't think the young males on the Autistic spectrum I know who want to be female because they seem to think it will stop them having Autism, have 'female' brains.

Nor do I think the young women who have been traumatised by male sexual violence and think 'becoming' a man will keep them safe have 'male' brains.

And i'm talking about people approved for GR including hormones and irreversible surgery after very brief assessments.

ItsLateHumpty · 27/06/2020 16:25

For OP, and anyone really...

I’m as thick as pig shit. No degrees, not a scientist or biologist, or infact even a mom or mum.

But you did say “To be brief...”

And you know what, I already knew that was a lying lie because men are bombastic.

Right up until they meet an intellect they weren’t expecting where reverse ferret (or in this case dump and run) are employed.

So you’re just a noisey trouser trumpet and I’ll be moving along.

Thanks for the smell.

Datun · 27/06/2020 16:24

@sadlandlonely2020

*Seriously this is funnier and funnier.

I had the 'opportunity to be kind', but chose to be patronising instead?

I'm going to stick my neck out here, and say that you are the only person on the entire planet who is shocked.*

This is a serious thread about an important issue that impacts our lives as women and you want to hijack it by picking through something I said.

If you want to attack me please start another thread as what you are doing here is undermining the women who are contributing to the discussion.

Do you have any views on the topic at hand?

*Sad+. the topic in hand on this thread is someone, who I'm assuming is male is coming along and telling us that you can have such a thing as a female brain in a male body.

This is not true. And many women here have looked at every single study that he could possibly give them, for the best part of 6 odd years.

Any brain in a male body is a male brain, by definition.

What this person is trying to achieve is to say that sex is determined by your brain, not your biological reproductive potential.

Which would then lead to the erroneous conclusion that men should be allowed into women's spaces. On the basis of their brain.

When men, however they identify, stop committing 98% of all sex crimes, 90% of all violent crimes, and almost all other crime, then we can talk.

When the OP on this thread hangs their head in shame because 120 million female babies and girls have gone missing, due to their lower status based on their biology, not their bloody mythical gender identity, then we can talk.

These boards have been talking about this issue including all the numerous studies, for the best part of six or eight years.

We could all write a bloody thesis on it.

The only reason new mansplainers are popping up is because we are actually, finally getting somewhere.

ItsLateHumpty · 27/06/2020 16:24

ScrimpshawTheSecond brilliant deployment of the Bear

LillianBland · 27/06/2020 16:23

New poster starts a bullshite thread and gets stance support from other new poster I’ve never ever seen that happen before on Mumsnet, Honestly. Now, excuse while I give my head a shake, so I can roll my eyes back to the front of my head.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/06/2020 16:21

I'm not completely uneducated in this science myself but I'm especially confident in the experience and ability of my fellow Mumsnetters who are absolutely going to make this patronising fellow look very silly indeed by the end of this thread.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

Posting is temporarily suspended on this thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread