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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Glinner thing

359 replies

JohnnyW2001 · 27/06/2020 15:12

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to @glinner's post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

OP posts:
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CharlieParley · 27/06/2020 17:53

Just wanted to add that I fully agree with those who reject the notion that any of us have an obligation to answer an OP who posts supposed evidence of one of the most damaging and enduring justifications for the oppression of women and girls - that we are wired differently than men, that so-called feminine traits are therefore hardwired into us, which in too many places in the world right now in this very moment that I write means that women and girls are treated as a lesser class of humans.

I don't generally hold with the view that in a forum like FWR anyone has any obligation to answer questions in a kind manner. Or answer them at all. Considering what the OP posted here, he or she got off lightly in my view.

And even if diane's comment was deleted, it was well deserved in my opinion. So thank you Datun and thank you ItsLateHumpty and all the others breaking with female socialization to express the disdain and sarcasm I feel too but far too often don't allow myself to show.

Oh and thank you JackiF for the Salmon study. What a find!

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 27/06/2020 17:50

@TeaAndStrumpets

Would the hypothetical genderbrain scan resemble a mammogram in any way?
It would look like a pair of bollocks.

Much like the opening post, in fact.

merrymouse · 27/06/2020 17:49

The logical conclusion of the OP's argument is that its possible to test people's brains to find out whether they are really male or female. I don't think that leads anywhere good, and certainly not 'the right side of history'.

bluebluezoo · 27/06/2020 17:42

One of the very first ways I began to break the insidious social conditioning I had received AS A FEMALE

Mine was when I didn’t want to “put on a bit of lipstick” to brighten myself up going to the shop. Aged 15.

That’s when I realised make up didn’t actually make me look better, but rather made other people think I was attractive in a societally accepted way. It was other people that cared if I put on make up to fit in with a concept of femaleness.

I always find it interesting that the tw narrative, presumably defined by their female brains, always subscribes to the hair make up nails aspect of femininity...

PaleBlueMoonlight · 27/06/2020 17:42

This might be a good place for Sophie Scott’s excellent talk on brain sex.

vimeo.com/414833798

merrymouse · 27/06/2020 17:39

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I think you need to do a bit more research and a bit more thinking. The science you are quoting is not mainstream or universally agreed. However, even if there were such a thing as a brain that was more common in females and a brain that was more common in men, it doesn't make any difference to sex.

50 years ago women who reached the height of 5'8" were judged to have the wrong height for a female and were given drugs to suppress their growth.

Now 5'8" is just a normal height for a woman.

Many traits are normal in men and women, even if they are rare.

However, women need specific rights and protections because of their sex, not their brains.

Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

I don't like the phrase 'right side of history', but you really should listen to your own advice about compassion and empathy.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 27/06/2020 17:30

It's not the brain that makes them male. It's the testosterone, coming from their big swinging balls hanging off their XY body.

I don't have any of that.

Even with my feeble lady brain I can tell the difference between a male and a female at 100 paces - and I see you just fine well.

JackiF · 27/06/2020 17:26

And the next plopper please......

FizzyGreenWater · 27/06/2020 17:25

A male post in a male body if ever I saw one.

Go 'way Nige.

WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee · 27/06/2020 17:15

In fact probably the only people who could comment about having a chromosomally male brain in a phenotypically female body are women with complete androgen insensitivity who have XY chromosomes but can't experience the effects of testosterone so have female genitalia and appearance.

Overwhelmingly they wish to be identified as female which suggests that lack of testosterone and social conditioning are more powerful than chromosomes and that having a 'male brain in a female body' does not actually cause you to want to be male.

There are not really any completely analogous reverse conditions.

Kaheki · 27/06/2020 17:09

@Furx

And you had the opportunity to kindly educate me but instead you decided to patronise. And we both know that you know your doing it

One of the very first ways I began to break the insidious social conditioning I had received AS A FEMALE was that I realised I didn’t owe it to anyone to be ‘nice‘ My life got markedly better in so many ways. I’m free to be an utter cunt if that’s what I want. I have agency.

I generally try to act with integrity and compassion, but – im fucked if im going to spend MY time and energy ‘educating‘ someone who is quite evidently holding a device which they can use to ‘educate‘ Themselves.

In other news WE ARENT YOUR MUM

Completely relate to this. It’s very liberating.
Cascade220 · 27/06/2020 17:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 27/06/2020 17:07

WokeUp

Thank you for that.

LillianBland · 27/06/2020 17:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Furx · 27/06/2020 17:05

And you had the opportunity to kindly educate me but instead you decided to patronise. And we both know that you know your doing it

One of the very first ways I began to break the insidious social conditioning I had received AS A FEMALE was that I realised I didn’t owe it to anyone to be ‘nice‘ My life got markedly better in so many ways. I’m free to be an utter cunt if that’s what I want. I have agency.

I generally try to act with integrity and compassion, but – im fucked if im going to spend MY time and energy ‘educating‘ someone who is quite evidently holding a device which they can use to ‘educate‘ Themselves.

In other news WE ARENT YOUR MUM

RoyalCorgi · 27/06/2020 17:03

So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

Er, no, it wouldn't. Even if you accept the very dubious proposition that there are major differences between male and female brains, then the idea that sometimes a male brain appears in a female body or vice versa is completely batshit. The brain is part of the body, connected to the other parts. The idea that somehow a "male" brain is going to end up plonked in a female body is just bonkers.

Simple question. Why not take some well-known trans rights advocates, people like Jane Fae or Munroe Bergdorf or Jessica Yaniv and put their brains under an MRI scanner? And then we can see if a scientist can look at the scans and identify whether they're male or female. Job done.

notyourhandmaid · 27/06/2020 17:03

OP's earnest lecture on how science works does all rather fall down if you've actually read Gina Rippon. Or Cordelia Fine. Or any neuroscientist ever, including Simon Baron-Cohen.

One might contemplate whether the sheer arrogance of this post is a result of the poster's male biology or socialisation or a combination of the two...

TeaAndStrumpets · 27/06/2020 17:03

Would the hypothetical genderbrain scan resemble a mammogram in any way?

WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee · 27/06/2020 17:01

It is indeed an amusingly unscientific statement that 'our genes are programmed to occasionally be random' err no not really.

There are occasional random errors and these might cause a person to eg be born with a missing digit or extra digit due to an error in the genes controlling the pattern development of the limb. By definition these are errors and not programmed

However the idea that such an error can result in a whole organ 'being in the wrong body' makes absolutely no scientific sense and is in no way analogous at all to a missing digit or even limb. You'd have to imagine that there was some specific spot in the brain that causes it to be male or female to 'develop wrongly' but there is no such place.

In fact there are disorders of sexual development but affecting genitals not brains and these can cause the 'wrong' genitalia eg CAH can cause male appearance of genitalia in a chromosomal female but these do not in any way prove transgender ideology or a 'spectrum of gender' and people with DSDs have repeatedly said they don't want to get dragged into and used in this debate.

HashtagLurky · 27/06/2020 17:01

Yes! Although, I really have given them up this week, due to Lockdown Lardarse. This thread is torture, surely. Wink

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 27/06/2020 16:58

@HashtagLurky

Looks like I picked the wrong week to give up biscuits. Hmm
love an Airplane quote

don't call me Shirley

HashtagLurky · 27/06/2020 16:47

Looks like I picked the wrong week to give up biscuits. Hmm

CharlieParley · 27/06/2020 16:47

I confess, my poor little female brain couldn't last through that boring diatribe of bollocks. But I did last long enough to see yet another misrepresentation of Gina Rippon's position. She does not deny that there are biological differences between male and female brains. She posits that the effect of those differences has been massively overstated and that as we cannot divorce the male or female brain we observe from the societal influences its owner has experienced throughout life, we should not ever put functional differences or traits observed predominantly in one sex down to biological root causes alone.

That position is sound and has not been disproven by any science to date.

On a side note - and why my eyes glazed over trying to read the OP's ill-informed lecture - I read through the so-called evidence for ladybrainz last year, analysed the studies, read responses and critiques and as previous posters have already said, there is no evidence for the concept of a male or female brain as used in aid of transgender ideology. There is no evidence whatsoever that anyone is ever born into the wrong sexed body.

However, research into gender dysphoria in homosexual transsexuals who typically present with the condition at a young age has shown that it develops in reaction to any of a number of different traumas disrupting the development of the child's understanding of themselves. There is a hypothesis that there may be pre-natal biological factors that may predispose an individual child to react in this way, but nothing conclusive has been shown yet.

And that there may be a multifactorial cause of gender dysphoria does not matter at all for the actual conflict in play. Individuals who identify as trans exist. Why they do so may be relevant to a counsellor they visit, but it is immaterial to deciding whether a disadvantaged group should lose rights for the benefit of another group. Especially when the latter group is mostly made up of people who don't even have gender dysphoria.

So what is your point, OP?

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 27/06/2020 16:46

Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever

I thought people were born with missing limbs because of a birth defect or in some cases thalidomide? Are birth defects caused by genes that are programmed to be ocassionally random?

FantaOra · 27/06/2020 16:46

giphy.com/gifs/ge-brain-neuroscience-rgH58HC8tx3pu

I've discovered a clinic offering a solution to the wrong brain problem. Here's their website.

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