Glinner

Shy, with Self ID these men do not need to pretend to be women. That's the whole point and why abusive men are pushing for this. They can just walk in as they are with a shirt and tie on and no one can challenge them if they say they are a woman today.

And why on earth, if we KNOW that men will abuse women and children as you said yourself, should we even think about removing safeguards to make it fucking easy for them??

The threats are out of order. Same as accusing trans people of harming children

see, i would say trans ideology harms children. if i were a religious woman I would believe that there was a special place reserved in hell for the founders and cheerleaders at Mermaids, for the things they have encouraged children to do to their bodies and minds

none of them are trans afaik

Same as accusing trans people of harming children and being groomers is completely out of order.

I honestly don't care if people are finding that word uncomfortable.

What else do you call it? When children are being told they must include the opposite sex in their friendship group or they may be guilty of a hate incident.

By the bloody CPS???

Or girls are singularly unable to get changed without a boy present?

Or being told to identify their inner brains on the basis of a spectrum with Cinderella at one end and GI Joe at the other?

And having their breasts removed on the back of this regressive ideology?

As an aside, it’s nice that the Sex board is still called...Sex. I doubt its regulars would appreciate it being called the G-word.

good heavens

you don't want people to notice or name grooming behaviour @ShyPhilosopher ? why on earth not?

thank you for responding calmly and not being accusatory

Targeting trans women with abuse, accusing them of grooming, is using the same rhetoric that was used about gay people just a few decades ago. It is not defending women's human rights. If anything, it is causing more of a backlash against feminists, as many are getting tarred with the same transphobic brush.

This is an absolute mis-representation of what Glinner has said and what feminists have said. I don't see that you are "carefully traversing" anything here at all - you do genuinely seem to be all over the place.

On one hand saying, Trans women have been allowed in female changing rooms, toilets etc for around a decade. There hasn't been a spike in crimes due to this, in fact most people didn't even realise it was already happening and then saying you appreciate how essential services are for protecting women. Well, thing is, self-ID changes things considerably and weakens our ability to safeguard our places, not just against assault, but intimidation, voyeurism, and for our dignity and privacy. Unisex changing rooms are less safe. Offending rates for transwomen are unsurprisingly no different from other men.

My advice to you is So please, step away from posting about this issue for a while. Mis-representing what people have been saying is utterly unfair and as long as you keep doing that, then there won't be a compromise.

I don't think it is right that they should have their rights taken from them either.

They aren't.

Lobby groups like Stonewall and mermaids were campaigning to have the GRA reformed, so that the criteria for being legally, that's legally, the opposite sex were scrapped. And to make it an administrative exercise.

Places getting ahead of the law has resulted in an absolute quagmire of safeguarding failures.

So all that has happened is the government has said those changes will not be made. The law is staying as it is. No rights are being rolled back by women.

The threats are out of order. Same as accusing trans people of harming children and being groomers is completely out of order. This increases the hate crimes against that community and genuinely leaves them fearing for their life. Both sides need to stop.

As long as heated arguments continue though, especially ones which include threats of violence or accusations of grooming

ah. threatening violence is as bad as noticing and naming grooming behaviour?

good to know

i think your equivalences are a bit off if I may say so

I don't think it is right that they should have their rights taken from them either.

What rights are being taken? The proposed changes to the GRA have been scrapped (or perhaps amended, no one actually knows yet) and the government has said they will reiterate and ensure that the current rights of female people are upheld.

Nothing is being rolled back, the current law is simply being explained in a clearer manner.

Treating fellow human beings with decency is about realising you do not have to push another minority down in order to maintain your rights.

Maybe try going and lecturing the trans activists about that (the fact women are a majority rather than a minority actually makes trampling on our rights worse, if you stop to think about it). Tell them to treat women and girls with some basic decency. Go on - see how that pans out.

Treating fellow human beings with decency is about realising you do not have to push another minority down in order to maintain your rights

women aren't a minority for heaven's sake

I see we're being treated to the 'balanced view' today. how super

No one is taking rights away from trans people. If you are talking about men no longer being welcomed into women's spaces, they never had the right to be there in the first place.

Shy, you think these men making threats and trying to harm women and children are scared? We are not talking about Hayley Cropper here, or Hinge and Bracket! We are talking about abusive men who are using this ideology, absolutely deliberately, to strip women of the rights that we NEED because of men's abuse and exploitation of our bodies throughout millennia. Wake up ffs.

RufustheRowlingReindeer “...as far as I know...”

Baaahahahaha you’re ace

This is a very important debate for me, as it will be most (if not all) people here, as it is about our children's future. 3 of my 4 children are female. 2 of my children are autistic, which brings with it a higher likelihood of gender identity difficulties. This is something my husband and I have therefore been carefully traversing. I therefore critically read the arguments on both sides of the debate. I don't want female rights to be rescinded. I have suffered both sexual abuse and domestic violence and appreciate how essential services are for protecting women. As I mix in the autistic community, I have a lot of friends who are trans &/or non-binary. I know what abuse you go regularly go through and all of this has riled up a great deal more hatred than usual towards them. I don't think it is right that they should have their rights taken from them either.

There has to be a compromise. As long as heated arguments continue though, especially ones which include threats of violence or accusations of grooming, I cannot see that being possible.

Scrimpshaw - next time someone threatens my life, I will stop to wonder what trauma they have been through, because that is the decent thing to do.

So, maybe FWR as it’s a powder keg conversation starter and opportunists like to either dump and run or dump and screenshot (for shits and giggles) newbies should have a holding period of say 24 hours after reg’ing to post.

Would save the mods the mire and FWR the harharhar screenshots.

Just in case one of my children spots this 😀

As far i know Bingle you can only post on the Sex board if you have been on mumsnet for over three months..seems to work but no idea of the exact ins and outs

(Couldnt resist)

Treating fellow human beings with decency is about realising you do not have to push another minority down in order to maintain your rights. .... those trans rights supporters who come out with misogynistic statements (esp. death or rape threats) also needing to take a breather.

How’d this go down on Twitter when you admonished suggested this to them?

I’m agog.

Really, AskDan, we need to have some compassion for all the men making death/rape threats. I mean, now look what we've gone and made them do? They were all so NICE beforehand.

Oh, aye. Anyone out there making death or rape threats, please could you just take a chill pill and calm down a bit? Ta.

We'll stop calling out MAPs and safeguarding issues, because obviously that's equivalent to making death threats.

but the language used is then harmful to all trans people.

Could you please give some specifics?

Personally, I‘m interested in defending spaces and services for female people (sex in U.K. law is chromosomes, gonads, gametes and genitals). What language can I use that pushes back against trans activists, that seek to remove my legal right to those spaces and services whilst not not using language that is harmful to all trans people?

Shy - I think you need to.read back your own words to yourself. You said that trans rights supporters who make death threats need to take a breather.

So men (let's be honest, they are the ones making death threats) who threaten women with death just need to take a breather and calm down a bit?

No action should be taken against him? Taking a deep breath is enough is it?

You should also consider restricting posting access to FWR as you do for the Sex topic.

Sorry, not a subject I use. Can anyone give me a quick overview of how this works?

Many thanks