Burgeoning plague of incels - apparently

‘At the same time, what happens when you have a whole class of men who can't find a spouse? They may already feel economically exploited and politically disenfranchised, and you add no family life to that?’

In the context of China I would expect exactly what it is happening - increased trafficking of women and girls and civil unrest. There isn’t really a way to resolve that for the current generation because the sex ratio is so unbalanced. There might be a way for neighbouring countries to prevent trafficking through increased anti-trafficking policies and enforcement, if those countries value their female citizens.

Where this doesn’t translate is in Western countries. I have an attractive late teens daughter. She has received no offers of family life from men in their teens or twenties, incel or otherwise.

One of the major changes in monogamy is that men in their teens, twenties and even thirties don’t feel ready to get married and start married life. My grandparents were married in their teens. My parents in their early twenties. I was married in my mid twenties. My daughter doesn’t really want to date men her own age because if the relationship continues it is highly unlikely those men will be ready to get married in a few years or maybe even in ten years.

And I have seen so many women end up with no kids due to being dumped for younger women after long relationships in their twenties.

So incels in the West may want Alex, but they are not generally offering family life.

family life can be very stabilising for people
My DH hires employees and he likes married people and parents. They’re much more stable, less likely to turn up with a hangover, less likely to create awkwardness by asking colleagues out, more likely to spend the evening putting children to bed and get up early the next day, more likely to have financial commitments so they are therefore more dedicated to their job.

Too busy on the old lady thread on S&B detailing my love for Virago and Persephone books, pearls, lemon curd and proper bread & butter

@Binterested

Maybe we should

But those of us older women who are ‘on the shelf’ are quite happily sitting up here being single. Not looking for an alpha male or indeed any man and not ranting at men for not providing me with my entitlement to sexual on tap.

It’s the entitlement that’s the issue not the potential partnership mismatch.

At the same time, what happens when you have a whole class of men who can't find a spouse? They may already feel economically exploited and politically disenfranchised, and you add no family life to that? From a purely strategic level, family life can be very stabilising for people, especially ones who already have reason to be unhappy. It gives them something to care and work for, and it gives them something to lose. The anger should be directed elsewhere but it's not just sex resentment, it's mixed with class resentment which is a powerful mix, and it would be pretty surprising if some didn't become directed to the women themselves.

Thanks @WhereYouLeftIt

Heartbreaking.

far more plausible one is that many women in their twenties are prepared to date older men and men in their twenties are not prepared to date older women
This is spot on. Assuming men are attracted to looks and women are attracted to money and power, it makes sense that younger women and older men like each other. Leaving younger men and older women on the shelf. This is exactly why many of those who are “incel” as young men suddenly get partners when they’re about 30 and earn more money.

Not RTFT but did read the article.

Whole thing sounds like a man problem to me.

Somehow criminals, sex offenders, drug dealers etc manage to find a gf/wife
Because unlike what the article claims, it’s not just money that makes a man attractive. It’s also looks, personality and a sense of being strong and powerful which can be expressed in ways other than wealth.

she has to be a trophy woman. that suggests to me that it is their relationship with other men that is at the heart of it
To accept a less attractive woman would be to admit to being a second class beta male and accepting “less” than the alpha males. From what I understand about incel culture there’s a strong hatred of alpha males who are more attractive than them, a hatred of women who desire alpha males, whilst still wishing to be the alpha male and attempting to emulate what they see as alpha behaviour.

All our fault as always. Men will never take responsibility for themselves or their failures so they play the blame game. After spending a lot of time on the internet, I don't think I could ever trust a man again. For all I know he could be posting about rape fantasies. It's not worth the risk and I think women should just give up on them entirely. They're showing their asses now more than they ever did before.

‘They shouldn't resent the women, but it would be natural to feel like women were looking at all the exterior trappings of success rather than valuing partners as a person if you saw it happening time after time.‘

In a country which has experienced one of the greatest famines in living memory and which has widespread poverty you would be insane not to choose a husband who had the exterior trappings of success if such a man was an option.

@serenada

www.economist.com/china/2017/11/04/demand-for-wives-in-china-endangers-women-who-live-on-its-borders

www.nytimes.com/2019/08/17/world/asia/china-bride-trafficking.html

From the article:

‘The number of American men under 30 who have never had sex tripled between 2008 and 2018 — but hasn’t risen nearly as rapidly for women. The only plausible explanation is that women are still having sex, but they’re competing for a smaller pool of desirable men and leaving the rest on the shelf.‘

It isn’t the only plausible explanation. A far more plausible one is that many women in their twenties are prepared to date older men and men in their twenties are not prepared to date older women.

That leaves more men than women in their teens and twenties with no sexual partnera and more women than men in their thirties, forties, fifties and so on with no sexual partners.

I would reiterate though that there are really two different things going on here.

Incels are typically these guys with personality problems. maybe they are assholes or sometimes they seem to have MH or other issues that mean they are not able to really find or relate to a sexual partner. These same kinds of issues make them likely to fall into this conspiracy theory stuff that they find online.

When you have a place like China, there are significantly fewer women, lots of guys who are relatively normal may not find wives. But chances are they will be the men who make less money or are less attractive. It's not useful to tell them to clean themselves up or get a better job. And it's understandable they might end up kind of resentful about the whole situation. They shouldn't resent the women, but it would be natural to feel like women were looking at all the exterior trappings of success rather than valuing partners as a person if you saw it happening time after time.

The notion that it is a good idea to marry a working class man because working class jobs are somehow more flexible and less demanding so will leave more time for childcare is delusional.

Men in China and India have already begun abducting women from surrounding countries.

@TehBewilderness

Have you any articles on this?

I wondered what would happen with policies to get more girls into education in some countries - who fills the gap that they filled? Without positive action, I suspect another girl will fill it.

War is the traditional solution that older men adopt to dispose of excess males in their society.
Men in China and India have already begun abducting women from surrounding countries.

Enforced monogamy is a term from anthropology. Saying there are different social outcomes when you have different arrangements/customs/laws around marriage isn't the same as telling individual women they need to solve the problem of spare men.

And all these men would be happy with a fat, older, ugly, witches (substitute derogatory comment of choice)?? Somehow I don't think so.

Exactly - they wouldn't. They're not involuntarily celibate - they're celibate because they don't fancy the type of woman it would be realistic for them to aim at. And unlike decent men, they are not prepared to look beneath the surface at a woman's personality, or to see qualities such as intelligence or success as anything but a threat to their own egos.

I'm on a meme website. The same men that moan about not having gfs,being virgins,being friendzoned etc are also laughing at overweight women, women that don't dress "right", women with heavy makeup etc while constantly wishing for a particular type with big breasts or whatever.

Yes - they don't want an overweight, unattractive woman or a normal woman - she has to be a trophy woman. that suggests to me that it is their relationship with other men that is at the heart of it - they want the equivalent of a porsche - status symbol stuff. Who is it really to impress?

But a man has to have something - money, good looks, confidence and personality - something that makes him desirable. If he has nothing going for him he’s going to struggle to attract anyone.

And all these men would be happy with a fat, older, ugly, witches (substitute derogatory comment of choice)?? Somehow I don't think so.

It's beauty and the beast - he can be a beast but she must be beautiful. And she has to look beyond the surface and not be shallow. But he is owed a perfect partner.