Burgeoning plague of incels - apparently

I think that a huge part of, if not most of, the problem is down to pornography. Male sexuality is different to womens- it's far more aggressive, far more outwardly directed and focused heavily on self satisfaction. A good male sexual partner is one that principally has learned self control and self discipline. This spills out into almost every aspect of his life: self hygiene, employment, respect, anger management, etc etc.

A huge part of the aggression of young men is not an excess of testosterone, but that they have not yet developed the character traits and skills to manage themselves. Pornography and compulsive masturbation are essentially ways to encourage this. A PP suggested that these could act as a relief valve- it is infact the opposite. The more sexual self gratification a man has the more he is angered and frustrated he becomes because it is essentially unfulfilling, unlike the way a dynamic and genuine sexual relationship is fulfilling. I would wager £10,000 that these incels are all chronic wankers who consume porn at a ferocious rate.

The principle problem for women here is the way in which this two behaviours dehumanise women for them. The corollary to this is the way in which these men fail to learn the single most important skill to being a man- self control. If you want to enter into an equal relationship with a woman, you can't give up the fact that you are physically stronger, the (likely) bigger earner, etc etc. If you want a wife who loves you and enjoys being with you (which is essential for a genuinely fulfilling sexual relationship) then she can't be afraid of you. Which means she has to believe that you are in control of your temper and your sexual urges. Which means that you likely are able to moderate consumerist impulses, so you're probably mostly fiscally sound, you can moderate other pleasurable impulses, so you are less likely to be an alcoholic, etc etc.

Self control and self denial are vital tools in helping young men grow up into functionally desirable men, and infact functional men in general. Repeated exposure to porn and chronic masturbation keeps men boys and ensures that remain childish and selfish. It's hardly surprising that women find such men repulsive.

It always comes round to the expectation that women act as caretakers for men's feelings

Being the entire world's mummy is not a feminist project, nor is soothing the wounded egos of angry men, nor is providing strokes for men's sad lonely penises. The whole incel thing is wounded entitlement, and can only be solved by those men coming to terms with the fact that they never were actually entitled to a relationship and either figuring out how to become someone women actually want to be in a relationship with or resigning themselves to being single.

If the countries with massive levels of sex selective abortion had a shift on that then that would help with the specific issues they're having, but honestly, is the incel movement being led from China? No, it's not, so the sex imbalance there is not the underlying problem.

“And addressing this problem should absolutely be seen as a feminist project. Being consigned to a life of hopeless, low-status singledom makes men more violent, sexually dangerous and politically disruptive. This is not an excuse, but it is a reality. It’s straightforwardly in women’s interests to improve the lot of our own burgeoning plague of Wikings.”

It’s not clear what this ‘feminist’ project is supposed to be, if it’s not mothering or marrying these men - and I don’t think that is what most feminists would regard as feminism.

Likewise the Saudi Arabian deradicalisation programme essentially involved getting extremists married, and has proved very effective.

Married to who? Given the link between terrorism and domestic abuse, and Saudi Arabia’s human rights record, I’m not convinced that this is a policy that should be copied!

I think the author was just saying women should care about this because it affects our society/quality of life - not that women are responsible? Just like men should care about prostitution, sexual assault and things that could be thought to just be an issue for women.

PPs suggestion of modelling happy, fulfilled celibate men would be good. Perhaps encouraged to work on things that it would be harder for people with families to work on (eg due to hours, location)?

And lots of women don't fancy 'alpha' males.

These men are awful sexist wankers. That's why they can't get a date.

I think that the reasons vary between countries.

China, India. Has an imbalance because girls are not wanted.
Why are girls not wanted? Because they are lower value.
So a societal shift needs to happen to change that.
I have also read that women are proritising getting an education and a good job. So that's a result of women getting more opportunities.

India, ditto.

In Japan, women are choosing not to marry as it curtails life. They are wanting freedom, to work etc. The male reaction to this has not been to change with this, instead many just shut themselves away.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/08/03/world/asia/japan-single-women-marriage.amp.html

In the UK and other similar countries, it's again a reaction to women's gains.
Women can earn their own money and have good lifestyles with lots of friends etc. They are choosier about who they date.

I see all of this as a reaction to women's gains in society. We are capable of looking after ourselves and when we meet men think, is life better with this bloke.

Remember that married men are happier than single men while the opposite is true of women.

Rather than upping their game, seems that lots of men feel angry and cheated. Entitlement.

Example. My friends experience of online dating has been awful. Dick pics, weird questions, lies etc etc

This idea that it's all about when looking for older men and the young ones are not in the picture is not something I see in my life at all. What I do see is women being more choosy because they don't 'need' a man. They earn their own money.

Also most women I know are married etc etc

The angry men definitely seem to have unrealistic expectations.

So I basically don't really agree with a lot of these comments.

I put it down to a backlash against women getting more opportunities. And rather than men upping their game, some seem to sulk, blame women, and want for women to be put back down again.

I think one or two posters mentioned it already: isn't polyandry the obvious solution to a surplus of men? Somehow I doubt it will have the the incels rejoicing, though...

so.....they hate the thing that they aspire to be?
Isnt that a rather conflicted position to take?
Not at all. It’s called jealousy.

Isnt that a rather conflicted position to take?

Not really because I don't think it's actual hatred, more envy and resentment because the alphas get their "share" of the pie and more. The hatred is reserved for women.

It's the position they want - top dog.

But yes, it is conflicting and prob not actually what they want if they had it.

a strong hatred of alpha males who are more attractive than them, a hatred of women who desire alpha males, whilst still wishing to be the alpha male and attempting to emulate what they see as alpha behaviour
so.....they hate the thing that they aspire to be?
Isnt that a rather conflicted position to take?

lack of stability for young people
true, no jobs, no affordable housing, how is anyone supposed to feel like a grown up if the hallmarks of adulthood are out of reach?
Not to excuse bad behavior but with no prospects no way to feel as if you have any status in life some people will just go 'fuck it' and disappear down a solipsistic rabbit hole

I think it is a bit chicken and egg. I have a friend who would love to settle down and have a family but rents, won't do a job beneath him so is unemployed quite a lot and travels widely. He doesn't appeal to the kind of woman who is looking to settle down.

David is, that’s an excellent point. A large part of why men aren’t becoming appealing partners is down to lack of stability for young people.

men in their teens, twenties and even thirties don’t feel ready to get married and start married life
There are wider problems at work here. Reliable jobs aren’t as easily available, employees aren’t valued as much, houses are very expensive. An older man is more likely to have progressed to a stable job with a decent salary and be able to afford a house in which to raise a family. In general any man who can afford those things is attractive to young single women.

Well, yes but he has got what he wants, hasn't he?

As for India , China and similar there is no easy fix,definitely not a quick one. Maybe in a few decades if their attitudes towards women and baby girls change.

When I was in my 20's I dated a guy a few times. I knew he lived with his parents, that wasn't an issue. I had only just moved out myself, and not managing very well to be honest. However when we were messaging and he moaned he was hungry, but was waiting for his mum to come from work and cook him something all interest faded.

My flat mate had an American friend visiting that couldn't figure out where to put his rubbish because his mum always clears the table and does such things.

Those were the kind of things that put us off men our age back then.

I think incels in the West are created by entitlement and greed. Incels in China and India perhaps are more created? By the massive sex disparity as well as the traditional patriarchal pressures. But then in places in Japan were you have large swathes of single men by choice. I don't think the problem of single men has one size fits all solution. In places like China and India, the obvious solution would be to actually value female children but whilst waiting for that cultural shift perhaps a solution would be a relaxing of the one child policy or even some form of tax credit to encourage female children. Kind of a bribe if you will? It's a vile idea but it may save some baby girls.

As for the West, porn really needs to be tackled and this culture of entitlement needs to be got rid of. As I said earlier though it would take other men to do it. I shan't be holding my breath.

‘However, it doesn't really put men or women in a great light. If someone really buys into the idea that this is what romantic love and sex comes down to no wonder they become cynical.‘

Well, yes, but the poster was just simplifying. Women don’t just want power and wealth. They also like looks, but they consider a wider age range of men to be attractive. And it isn’t really power and wealth it is stability - a man who has a steady job, friends, hobbies, a roof over his head seems like a stable person with whom to raise children.

So I am not sure what we mean by romance, but the better bet is are we a compatible couple to raise children and create a happy family life?

Alex?!! Sex.