PCs suspended over photos of murder scene

ultimately, it is more about deprivation, lack of education and a value system which is deeply embedded, generational, and contrary to success in the mainstream culture

What complete bollocks - this is just the sort of racial and class stereotyping that actually re-inforces discrimination, but among others teachers.

Your statement implies that unless people perform to your social norms, they aren't achievers.

And the ultimate guilty person - the single mother.

Has it ever occured to you that having a teacher that thinks like you is so demotivating they cant be bothered.

And as for: This culture is not unique to young black men, although there certainly seems to be race specific ( & geographical) cultural patterns. is to my mind racist.

Just shocking lazy stereotyping thinking. I would be horrified to think any child or grandchild of mine would have you as a teacher.

'The screaming did result in a police presence. The screaming happened at 1.08 p.m. on 7th June. It wasn't contemporaneous with their deaths which happened it's estimated at around 2a.m on 6th June.'

This post puts the screaming at after the murders?

Anyway not the point.

No police won't attend for screaming in London.
No police won't attend for missing adults.

That is how it is.

The mum's read of the tone in response should not be disregarded. People know when they are being fobbed off etc. Where you live has a massive impact on the response you get. It's always valuable to think about the police in terms of who are they really working for.

Compare the coverage of this to the young woman who was randomly stabbed to death while having a picnic fairly recently. Very different. And I live in London so get the news here etc.

2 sisters randomly stabbed to death definitely got much less attention in the press than the girl who was killed.

Attention increased with the news about the pictures.

@averysuitablegirl

No excuse for that happening but what is that no percentage wise of the total contact with police in over 40 forces in a 5 yr period ?

Police can't win at the moment. They are getting criticised from all areas. The majority of officers do an excellent job in very poor conditions and out there life on the line.

There has always been bad apples. Bad apples in every profession.

The two officers have disgusted the public , police colleagues currently serving and those retired.

People who slate police have very little understanding of their day to day work and conditions.

I think this case and the photos has been reported quite a lot on the tv news but not so much in the papers .

It has been reported as being racist . Unfortunately this kind of thing has been going on for a while ( in appropriate photos) and is not necessarily racist.

I can think of one case in the 80s where it is reported to have happened but as there was no SM then it was hidden.

In this case I Can’t understand how the officers thought it would go unnoticed.

I hope this is not swept under the carpet .

No, I wasn't Justhadathought. See my post above. I was talking about the toxic masculinity within the police force.

The people who have done something extremely wrong in this case are the perpetrator and the police officers who took the photos.

If deprivation etc is to do with 'certain other ethnic groups' then it's racism, clearly. If some ethnic groups are more failed than others by the education system, it's also racism.

Or are you saying that their disadvantage is the fault of black people?

Because that's also racism.

Just because you don't agree with a view doesn't make it rubbish waitrosequeue.

There were 1, 491 complaints about sexual harassment, exploitation of crime victims and child abuse recorded against the police in England and Wales over approx 5 years.

In the context that police forces were extremely reluctant to respond to FOI requests to put this data in the public domain, and that 10 forces just didn't reply, and that crimes under the sexual offences act are known to be under reported.

371 upheld. 197 police officers, SCs and PSCOs sacked or resigned.

It was only in 2017 that officers could be found guilty after they had left the force. Before that, officers could just go quietly knowing that they were off the hook of any investigation.

I do agree with you that the social culture around the expectations of masculinity in the police force, that officers can treat even dead women as pieces of meat, is very likely a factor in the officer's behaviour

Nice try! But both you and i know we are talking about cultural expectations of masculinity in some black communities.

I've just finished watching the Netflix documentary about R J.Kelly and his abuse of young girls ( & how he got off with it).....and it would seem that there is a deep cultural expectation that black women are meant to prioritise their blackness over their femaleness, even at their own expense.

What other social groupings that have been systematically denied privileges, denied fair access to education, experienced family stresses and pressures to the extent that one third of their children are being brought up by lone parents, are over-represented in deprived socioeconomic groups and are embued with low aspirations across generations were you thinking of Justhadathought

White working class people. Irish people in England. And also certain other ethnic groups.

I live in Liverpool, I don't need to be told about low aspiration, inter-generational deprivation, compounded by cultural values and expectations which are contrary to success in mainstream culture.

I also used to be a teacher, and I saw that some ethnic groups were more prominent than others when it came to educational success & aspiration. Arabic, Chinese, and certain Asian groups, but not so many black pupils. What do you think it might be that holds black pupils back? Do you really think it all about 'structural prejudice' and lack of opportunity? Or might there be some socio cultural effects?

Utter rubbish about the masculinity in the police being a factor in the officers taking the photos.

The two officers lacked integrity and empathy which the majority of officers have.

The stereotyping of police on this thread is awful.

I am sure that if it was reversed and there was stereotyping of black females or black youths there would be up roar.

Let's see what happens when the killer gets caught and their identity.

I do agree with you that the social culture around the expectations of masculinity in the police force, that officers can treat even dead women as pieces of meat, is very likely a factor in the officer's behaviour.

What other social groupings that have been systematically denied privileges, denied fair access to education, experienced family stresses and pressures to the extent that one third of their children are being brought up by lone parents, are over-represented in deprived socioeconomic groups and are embued with low aspirations across generations were you thinking of Justhadathought?

I'd also say bit is about cultural masculinity and expectations of males in certain social cultures.

Justhadathought the problem that the police cause amongst the gangs around me is the relentless targeting of (mainly) young men, particularly black men, from their early teens onwards

Yes, it is a vicious cycle, I get that...it is the same with any social grouping which has historically been the locus of under-privilege, lack of education, broken families, single parent families etc. This culture is not unique to young black men, although there certainly seems to be race specific ( & geographical) cultural patterns.

I'd say, ultimately, it is more about deprivation, lack of education and a value system which is deeply embedded, generational, and contrary to success in the mainstream culture.

Justhadathought the problem that the police cause amongst the gangs around me is the relentless targeting of (mainly) young men, particularly black men, from their early teens onwards.

This creates a situation in which a significant group of society simply don't trust the police. With anything, ever, under no circumstances.

So they address what they see as crime against them or their allies through reprisals.

Of course individual's behaviour is their own choice. Although individual police officers work within structures that are racist, sexist, classist and prejudiced to the core, and in which they know they'll be protected to the nth degree if, for example, someone dies within their custody, they're filmed tasering a 61 year old man whose flat the entered forcibly for 'drug related offences' (spoiler, there weren't any), grope a female suspect or witness, knock someone from the travelling community about a bit etc etc etc ad fucking infinitum.

So their actions are their responsibility, although the protection that they're afforded results from their position as police officers, rather than their race, class or sex.

Acknowledging the role of structural prejudice is the opposite of identity driven politics

No it isn't! In what way is it opposite? I'm not sure that even makes sense. I certainly cannot make any sense of it.

If you identify yourself primarily on the basis of your skin colour; your sex; your social or economic class; your neighbourhood; your nation; rather than on the content of your character.

What do you mean by 'structural prejudice', for a start? A lack of equal civil rights? Or do you mean assumptions based on stereotypes of particular groups?

Justhadathought eh?

Acknowledging the role of structural prejudice is the opposite of identity driven politics.

Yes, we have terrible problems of violent crimes,gangs etc in London much of which results directly from young people not trusting the police so 'sorting things out' amongst themselves

So it is never the responsibility, or fault, of the perpetrator of a crime or violent incident, it is always the fault of the police. That young black men stab each other in territorial gang warfare has nothing to do with them. They are mere pawns in a game of white privilege. Rubbish!

We each have personal responsibility, regardless of the colour of our skin, or our economic circumstance, and to suggest otherwise is actually a racist sentiment.

I think you are right that the police should have responded. Women going missing should have had a priority given it was unusual for these particular women to be missing in these circumstances.

However, missing people, adults having a late night party , not wanting to be located is a common theme.
The police have made a massive assumption here based on all sorts....this time they have got it sadly wrong.

The screaming was well after they were dead then. Given there had been two women murdered in an apparent random attack in the area the night before, and the man hasn't been caught, I'd hope that the police would turn out for that tbh

Unless I have misread that post

Yes you have completely misread it. I suggest you read the link to The Sun report.

And please don't play the 'this happens to white people too' game

I think it is you gaming the situation, ironically......which is kind of inevitable when one sets up a confrontational, identity driven kind of politics.

'
The screaming did result in a police presence. The screaming happened at 1.08 p.m. on 7th June. It wasn't contemporaneous with their deaths which happened it's estimated at around 2a.m on 6th June.'

The screaming was well after they were dead then. Given there had been two women murdered in an apparent random attack in the area the night before, and the man hasn't been caught, I'd hope that the police would turn out for that tbh.

Unless I have misread that post.

I agree about the search thing

However I also don't doubt the mum's read of the lack of interest.

I am a white woman from a 'nice' area and the few times I have had to call the police (not my first option as I don't trust that they'll do anything) the response has been markedly different depending on where I called from etc. Very very interesting.

It's not one or the other. It's true that they won't send out a search party for this BUT the read from the mum is also valid and likely.

@averysuitablegirl

It was a standard response ,or non response if you wish to have that view point , to a report of two adults not vulnerable who had not returned home.

It would have been the same response if it had been two white females , two white males or two whatever genders.

An adult is able to make unwise decisions which may include not returning home.

If police attended and put a search immediately for every adult that didn't come home then the police force would be even more stuffed than it is now.

Have no idea of the Police IT system but you would have throughts reports of screams in a specific area and then a report of 2 mising women in the same are would have warranted a response by the police!

And yet the boyfriend of one of the woman was the only one to go and search

The screaming did result in a police presence. The screaming happened at 1.08 p.m. on 7th June. It wasn't contemporaneous with their deaths which happened it's estimated at around 2a.m on 6th June.

Finfintytint I think the point is not so much whether the people taking the calls made the link between screams being reported and missing persons report as soon as the women were reported missing, but the fact that the women being reported missing was considered unimportant by the police, so no joining of dots was even initiated.

Even then, once the women had been found, I don't recall a huge public message to all those in the area who had heard/seen anything that evening to come forward.

It may be that the police recontacted all those who had called in to report screams etc the night before (likely not thousands in one specific residential area tbh), but it would be at odds with their general apathy towards finding this perpetrator.