PCs suspended over photos of murder scene

They have charged an 18 yo with the murders.

I've always believed that this type of offence should be against the law.

"Offence" and "law" can have narrow meanings when used together. Something that is an offence is axiomatically against the law.

But what law would you draft to make this an offence ? How would you word it without either criminalizing the work of SOCO and journalists, or placing (yet another) judgement call about decency on a court ?

The law is not - and certainly should not be used as - a tool to enforce decency and morality.

Heaven only knows (or is it Hell?) was going on in those Policemen's minds. I felt actually sick to my stomach when I heard that news.

I've always believed that this type of offence should be against the law. Its abhorrent that people see fight to not only document but then share. Everyone deserves dignity.

endoftheline so sorry

My heart goes out to you endofthelinefinally. I'm so very sorry for your loss.

[flowers}, endofthelinefinally.

I'm with ShinyFootball, this thread has turned into a racist mess. You'd think people might stop to consider whether a thread about two murdered women who were then exploited again after being murdered is really the place to air their "theories" about black people.

endofthelinefinally I'm so sorry for your loss.

All kindest wishes to you.

Yeah I never said I never said I thought it was another officer that reported it but someone known to them has.

I'm taking a small amount of comfort here from the fact that someone did report this, which if they are known to those involved, cannot have been easy for them.

From reports it wasn't a police officer that reported it, but a civilian that was "in on" the whatsapp group:

The IOPC said the pictures were allegedly "shared with a small number of others", adding the Met was "handling matters involving those members of the public who may have received those images".

So I think the repeated assertion of the statistics of "decent officers" has taken another hit. We also need to have a think as to whether it is appropriate that serving police officers should be involved in "private" Whatsapp groups of any stripe. Bearing in mind Whatsapp is a privately provided communication platform that the participants have no control over and once data disappears into the Whatsapp pipe it is effectively gone forever. Why ? Because the end to end encryption in the platform makes it impossible to know what people have sent and seen.

The stereotyping of police on this thread is awful

Nowhere near as bad as the stereotyping some groups face at the hands of the police everyday though. And with much less consequence.

Anyone remember that video clip of a policeman telling a suspect he'd just make shit up ?

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/lancashire-police-officer-who-threatened-18121548

If the police don't like being criticised for being institutionally racist, closing ranks, and acting like uniformed bully boys, there is a startlingly easy solution. As a public we have another 50 years. We're not going anywhere.

I also used to be a teacher,

Bingo! I guessed that about 6 months ago.

Just shocking lazy stereotyping thinking. I would be horrified to think any child or grandchild of mine would have you as a teacher

Maybe if they had been pupils at my school, they might have learned some critical thinking skills.......because you clearly would not be able to teach them that yourself.

Has it ever occured to you that having a teacher that thinks like you is so demotivating they cant be bothered

Making everything personal is just antagonism for the sake of it, as far as I can see. And insulting.

And no I didn't go into any classroom with fixed expectations.You go into a classroom with a desire to teach and to help open up the world for your pupils, and with a love for your subject. But you obviously become aware of habits, patterns, attitudes and behaviours which can prevent or block educational attainment.

By the time many pupils get to secondary school ( where I taught) the dye is almost cast. The culture of the home, family and neighbourhood shapes a child for better or for worse - in terms of success/achievement in mainstream education.

This is a disgraceful thing to have happened compounded by further bad behaviour from the police.

Yes there is a racism problem in police forces in many countries. Certain careers are more likely to attract some people who enjoy power over others.

Or are you saying that their disadvantage is the fault of black people
Because that's also racism*

Putting words into my mouth and then accusing me of something you yourself are saying is a bit of a ploy. The pattern now seems to be you going " Are you saying this?", " Are you saying that?" Leaping to a position of indignation based on what seems to be a desire for overly simplistic solutions and answers, and trying to position me as an unconscious oppressor.

I have not made sweeping generalisations about black people as a whole, but have made observations of some demographics and communities: some white communities ( in my own city), as well as some black communities; also about some Asian communities.....not all. That would indeed be racist.

But to ask questions about different cultures and different values, and how they shape or reinforce behaviour or expectation is not racist. A perpetual feeling that the police are your enemy is a common in some white communities as well. Nobody will come forward when there has been a crime for fear of being labelled a grass or a snitch, or because of a fear of reprisals.

I get how it tough it must be to live in a kind of ghettoised community; a community shaped by long term unemployment, under-employment, low educational attainment, cultural deprivation, low skills and so on....and how difficult it can be to get out of that. And certainly for many young men, who get drawn into gangs and into a life of petty criminality....where the only legitimate way out looks to be via football ( if incredibly lucky and talented, or through boxing etc).

Education and the possibility for social mobility that it can offer is the only answer, aside from engagement in ever deeper waters of the black or criminal economy.

Loyalty to tribe is also a feature of such communities, even as those communities and the cultures they foster are detrimental & even oppositional to the individual escaping it. Mainstream culture is rejected, and along with it the skills, values and desire to achieve in it.

If deprivation etc is to do with 'certain other ethnic groups' then it's racism, clearly. If some ethnic groups are more failed than others by the education system, it's also racism

I'm thinking of working class Pakistani children, as one example. Not, generally as academically successful or aspirational as children of Indian origin. Some of that may have to do with the position( and education or lack of) of women ( & therefore mothers) in some ethnic communities....but there are obviously cultural issues which feed into parental expectations of their children, as well as differences in parental expectation of girls and boys.

I'm taking a small amount of comfort here from the fact that someone did report this, which if they are known to those involved, cannot have been easy for them. But cannot get my head round what sort of people wpuld do this. To me you should not get through police training without assessment of your values and ethics. I have no idea if police training addresses these kind of issues at all.

endof sending love to you

If the police predominantly stop and search black people, there will continue to be more black people arrested for criminal behaviour. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy and is a institutionally racist approach used to confirm the bias that black people commit more crime.

If the police stopped and searched mostly white people, the results would probably be the same. Only they don’t.

I am beyond horrified by everything about this case.
I have lost my adult child and I have to say, the police were very kind to me at the time. I never saw my child's body, I never wanted to see anything related to the discovery of his body. If I thought anyone had taken photographs and shared them I would lose my mind.
That poor woman has lost 2 daughters and has now found out that they have been exploited and treated with such disrespect.
I can't even find the words.
I have cried over this and I don't even know the family.

What do you think are the reasons for ongoing differences in educational success between different ethnic groups Wakeandbake?

ShinyFootball yes I do agree. These terrible, terrible violent murders and the attending officers' conduct make it so obvious that black lives didn't matter for very long (or at all).

That poor family. There is a child who has been left without a mother, a mother who has had two of her children taken from her in the most horrific way, extended family and loved ones whose lives will never be the same again.

I cannot imagine what they were going through before they were told about the photos, let alone now.

If deprivation etc is to do with 'certain other ethnic groups' then it's racism, clearly. If some ethnic groups are more failed than others by the education system, it's also racism.

Just racism? From who?

How do you explain the differences in educational attainment between, say, Afro-Caribbean kids whose families have been in the U.K. for generations and Nigerian kids with a very short familial connection to the U.K.? The Caribbean kids results a far far worse. Is this because people are less racist to Nigerians?

And I'm getting really pissed off with this, oh black people in London are some kind of special case when it comes to criminality.

If we're talking drug dealing, violence, dangerous gangs...

Around here the drug dealers are white.
Violence... Pub violence, fights on the street, remember football hooligans? Round here. White.

Serious gang stuff.. well I know a few people who've been in prison. All white. The stuff around modern slavery, from what I've read seems to be groups that are not black.

In our area over the years the hatdcore gang stuff, the guns, knives, serious violence etc has been people from the UK or Eastern Europe.

In the news when it comes to criminal gangs, like the people who trafficked girls around the country, or the people who lured people over here and took their passports and enslaved them etc. Round here. Not black. I'm in London.

IF the police stopped all the young white men in fancy cars round here then they would find all sorts of stuff.

But they don't.

And that is the problem with stop and search and saying oh well black people = gangs, stabbings.

In my experience black people including young men are more likely to do things like offer seats on the tube, help if you are in trouble. That is what I have found.

The idea that black communities (what does that even mean) are more violent etc then others is straight up racist.

When you go to hosp or someone you know is in care or needs care at home, or an office needs to be cleaned, who is doing it? Round here, disproportionately black women.

On this thread we've had, black people are disproportionately criminal, hence stop and search
What does that have to do with these two women being murdered?

They were maybe at an illegal gathering
What is the point of that comment?

I have personal experience of the police treating you differently depending on their assumptions about 'who you are'
And I'm a white, middle class woman.

The met have had so many incidents of failing victims, lying, investigating the victim instead of the reported crime, corruption, racism, Viber cover ups etc. And still people say 'oh well you can't prove that these photos which were totally awful have anything to do with the fact the victims were black and female'.

I suppose if you don't think that, if you honestly think they would take selfies with a white man who had jumped off a bridge, or a child who had been raped and murdered, or a grandmother who had been beaten to death, then that's an even bigger problem. Don't you agree?

Please don't minimise these abuses of power as a small percentage and 'bad apples' waitrosequeue.

These are only the reported cases that the police would own up to. Nearly a quarter of forces didn't respond to the FOI requests.

It's horrific for victims of crime when the crimes against them, especially committed by those in a position of responsibility, are minimised.

Please, just don't.

'In this case I Can’t understand how the officers thought it would go unnoticed.

I hope this is not swept under the carpet .'

It was by luck that they misjudged the audience on the watsapp groups and someone reported it.

What had been posted up to that point, that they thought this was ok?