If someone identifies as an amputee they are given psychological help

Refusing to believe gender identity exists is a strange way to phrase it. Do you think trans people are making it all up?

I believe they're describing their internal experiences in the language that makes sense to them. Unfortunately for women, this is the language of the patriarchy.

I don't believe in innate gender identities that exist independently of one's sexed body; as identity formation takes place within a sexed body it is informed by both the sex of the body and the way that sex is viewed by society.

"Transwoman" is an identity found only in males. It is not a "female" gender identity because it does not occur within females. Ditto in reverse for "transman".

I believe we should acknowledge and recognise gender dysphoria as a very real belief.

Of course it is a very real belief. My main beef (aside from it being founded in sexist stereotypes and necessarily involving the ignoring of women's sex-based boundaries and rights) is that attempts to treat males' dysphoria by demanding they are categorised as women has had a knock-on effect on females' dysphoria and how it's handled - when you tell girls that "woman" is something that applies to males who like to dress in stereotypically-feminine ways and that to question this is bigotry of the highest order, you're telling girls that if they don't subscribe to those stereotypes then they're not actually girls.

@oldcrone

Yes Body dysmorphia is where you believe things about your body that dont match reality. In it's most basic form, an anorexic who looks in the mirror and believes they're fat is suffering with body dysmorphia.

How dysphoria feels to me is the same as when I had dopamine problems breastfeeding my middle son.

So I think it's probably caused by a big crash in dopamine and the stress hormone being raised beyond your typical "ffs I look like I've been dug up" feeling that everyone experiences time to time and is also not the same as being unhappy with your body.

Obviously I'm not a doctor and I'm only describing how it feels to me and comparing based on how I feel. People talk about dysphoria as if it's a constant too and from my experience it isnt and if I'm right about the dopamine thing its not even physically possible for it to be a constant state.

At the moment I am overall unhappy with my body but I am not experiencing dysphoria due to the fact I am minimising external triggers.

Other times I can be overall happy with my body but then experience a sudden dysphoria. I can be unhappy with my body and experience periods of euphoria.

So managing dysphoria can be greatly helped by limiting exposure to triggers. This can be helped by people around you acknowledging that you are struggling and employing techniques which may help.

What often seems to be missed with gender dysphoria is that euphoria can be just as damaging as dysphoria. It just feels good while you do it.

If I experience euphoria and continually encourage it it's like a drug addict taking more and more and more.

Not only that but if you've been deprived of the happy hormones, when you experience euphoria, your brain has an even bigger dump of dopamine because it knows it's going to be deprived again, each time it happens it's going to be even more intense because your brain goes "OMG this hasnt happened for ages get the led out boys" and floods you with happy.

Nothing will EVER convince me that ANYONE with body dysmorphia and experiencing dysphoria do not need psychiatric input.

If they outcome of this is that you decide to dress and live as the opposite sex then psychotherapy is essential to teach you how to deal with dysphoria and euphoric triggers that you WILL experience rather than screaming at everyone else to change.

Me too Jaxhog - nobody is suggesting religious people need psychiatric help for their beliefs so I don't see why transgender people do.

I must admit that I'm going to have trouble remembering which is a mental illness and which is not; the words are annoyingly similar!

I think the comparison with religion is a good one. It's as if the only choices are to blindly believe or be accused of blasphemy. Which is rather a serious accusation.

Do you think trans people are making it all up?

No.

Homophobic parents who won't let boys play with dolls are the ones who have invented all this pink/blue nonsense. Trans people are the victims of all this made up shite.

So dysmorphia is the feeling that there is something wrong with the body, and dysphoria (the opposite of euphoria) is feeling distress that there is something wrong?

And we have been told by someone on here that one is a mental illness and the other isn't.

If giving in to the 'mental disorder' brings happiness and contentment to a high number of people then it makes sense that it would be re-classified to be a condition rather than a mental disorder.

There is a big difference between someone who wants to live their life differently, with no impact on anyone else and no expense to anyone else, and someone who expects everyone around them to change their way of thinking, tolerate the impact on their personal freedoms AND pay for permanent surgery to change their bodies too.

it's basically impossible to be "atheist" in this debate.

I don't believe TWAW or TMAM. Does that make me an atheist?

You are labelled a bigot if you refuse to believe that gender identity exists.

Refusing to believe gender identity exists is a strange way to phrase it. Do you think trans people are making it all up?

Why should I have to invent a belief in internal gender (with no evidence that it exists) to validate someone else's view of themselves?

Nobody is asking you to invent your own beliefs. Much like we have to humour religious people who believe society should be dictated by their invisible friend in the sky, I believe we should acknowledge and recognise gender dysphoria as a very real belief.

I also believe it is entirely possible to do this while upholding the importance of biological sex. The exceptions in the Equality Act re trans women make this possible.

Body dysphoria was simply a term used to describe the feelings towards ones self experienced by a person suffering body or gender dysmorphia.

Thanks for that explanation Milotic.

So dysmorphia is the feeling that there is something wrong with the body, and dysphoria (the opposite of euphoria) is feeling distress that there is something wrong?

Any religious person must alter their world view in order to accept a husband and husband or wife and wife.
No that's not what I meant. I mean it's basically impossible to be "atheist" in this debate. You are labelled a bigot if you refuse to believe that gender identity exists. Why should I have to invent a belief in internal gender (with no evidence that it exists) to validate someone else's view of themselves?

Well this could be controversial but I think honestly that in a good proportion of cases it's down to a sexual fetish. This seems to drive quite a lot of apotemnophilia diagnoses and at least some GD. There are remarkable similarities between the two (at least in adult men, though I haven't heard of any adult women seeking amputation).
Most people (based on case reports in the case of amputation as it is so rare) are delighted with the results.

I think the treatment given is down to the historical development of the condition and its understanding. I really wonder if Money was to be scrubbed from the historical record how differently the diagnosis and treatment may have evolved. Or, it could just be evidence that society always finds a way for men to fulfil their sexual fetishes.

Also, Sapphos, if body dysphoria is the same as gender dysphoria, you seem to be saying that there are no other types of body dysphoria in which people's distress is due to some other part of their body other than their sexual characteristics. Is that correct?

Yes OldCrone people with gender dysphoria are sometimes treated with hormones. It is the only treatment that is known to alleviate dysphoria. So why should it be withheld from people who need it?

So if people need treatment for it to alleviate the symptoms, it must be some sort of illness.

SonEtLumiere

Very easy. I do it all the time.

I do not tell my psychotic patients that yes I too can see the little green men or hear the voices they can but I do not deny that they can hear them and that it distresses them and they deserve kindness and care for that experience. I do not encourage them to call the police about hallucinations and the police do not attend if they do (ie they do not collude)

I do not tell my anorexic patients that yes they are fat and their dieting is justified but I acknowledge that they really feel they are fat and their fear of eating is real. They get therapy to help them identify why they have these beliefs. Weight watchers would not let them self identify as fat and join up.

I can't see the difference if I said to a gender dysphoric person that I accept they feel they are a woman and that this causes distress to them and that distress is real but I cannot agree that it is true or encourage them to campaign for access to women's spaces on that basis. I would instead encourage them to access therapy and talk about why they have those feelings and how to cope with them.

In general with delusional and overvalued ideas it is recognised that colluding with these is a very bad idea and prevents the person from recovering. Recovery is taken to be accepting that these thoughts are not based in reality and understanding the reason why they developed and addressing that instead.

I do fail to see why being transgender is different but as I have said a lot upthread I accept that illness in general is a social construct and what we regard as illness that should be treated at any point is socially determined. If someone is happy being trans then they can carry on as far as I am concerned and don't need any treatment but that does not mean everyone has to agree with them about it.

This bit:* Suggestions- I guess your implication is that transgender people should not be told 'it's all in your head' and should have their experience acknowledged.
I actually do not think anyone at all disagrees with that.*

I think if you read these boards fully you would see quite a few would disagree with that!

Without quoting continuously... to address a few points - the main point I was trying to state was that, if you're looking at best outcomes for people with FND it usually starts from a position of acknowledging their experiences as real. Since the parallel had previously been made between trans people's experiences and those with conversion disorder, my argument is, if you consider there are similarities (and I won't get into my own thoughts on that) then you should similarly start from a position of acknowledging trans peoples' experiences as real.

But there is a lot of contempt on this point, and I don't know that that is helping in solving any of the individual problems or general societal/political issues. In my experience with people with FND, to continue the parallel through, it persists the longer it is dismissed by professionals and symptoms begin to improve when the patient considers they are 'believed' and treated with respect.

It was not my intention to make any further points than that really. I personally believe women's competition is sport needs to be protected where reasonable. And I am not an outright advocate of sex reassignment surgery, although I do accept that, in the right circumstances, for some people it may give the best outcome for them.

As for this:

There is also a reason LGBT have been grouped together

Well, yes. The reason is: one upon a time the only males who were permitted to medically transition were homosexuals.

Quite why they're still grouped together, when the majority of the male-born section of the T are heterosexual, I have no idea.

nobody is required to change their world view and perception of themselves in support of gay rights.

Yes they are. Most religions do not align with gay rights. Any religious person must alter their world view in order to accept a husband and husband or wife and wife.

Some clergy will choke out an informal blessing of gay marriages in churches but in general they refuse to alter their world view to support gay rights:

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/27/church-of-england-bishops-marriage-doctrine-talks

@oldcrone

As long as I've been in an out of psychiatrists and hospitals for these exact issues. Body dysphoria was simply a term used to describe the feelings towards ones self experienced by a person suffering body or gender dysmorphia.

It has however been hijacked and conflated with other things by certain people wishing to force the label to fit them because actually, they dont fit the label.

Looking in the mirror and being disappointed or sad is NOT dysmorphia OR dysphoria.

I really think the only people qualified to talk about gender dysphoria are trans people [people who have gender dysphoria] themselves.

Great - so those of us who've spent years dissociating from our sexed bodies and the expectations placed upon them are allowed to talk about it. Good to know.

Personally I'm bloody glad no one ever suggested dealing with my hatred of being identified by others as the social construction of womanhood by, y'know, chopping bits off and telling everyone they have to stop raping me because I'm actually a man.

And I find it absolutely horrifying that girls with my experience are not just being denied the psychological help they need from medical professionals, but also being denied access to the community with information that would help them parse their experiences in a healthier way.

*dysphoria!

As far as I know there are no other types of body dysmorphia where everyone else is forced to confirm and believe what the person who is affected is feeling. It is totally different to homosexuality- nobody is required to change their world view and perception of themselves in support of gay rights.

OldCrone body dysphoria AKA gender dysphoria:

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

As you can see it's not a mental health condition.

[quote SapphosRock]@BaronessBrighterThanYou

Body dysmorphia = mental health condition. CAN be treated with therapy and anti-depressants. Tends to present in teenagers and young adults.

Body dysphoria = fundamental life long condition. CANNOT be treated with therapy and anti-depressants. Generally present from early childhood. [/quote]
Can you provide a source for those definitions? My attempts at searching the two terms lead me to loads of sources where they either conflate the two, or compare body dysmorphia with gender dysphoria.

The NHS, for example, has entries for body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, but nothing on body dysphoria.

@SapphosRock no, I have explained several times. I actually suffer with these things and have clinical diagnosis of them.

Dysphoria is something someone with body dysmorphia suffers.

There is also the opposite. Euphoria. And when you treat body dysmorphia these two extremes go away.

PLEASE stop trying to educate me on conditions I have been diagnosed with for upwards of 10/15 years and which I'm still undergoing specialist treatment for just because I used disphoria/dysmorphia the wrong way around in a comment.