How can you be transgender and non-binary?

Yes indeed King and this is what I don’t understand I suppose and it makes me feel very sad.

And without being shallow, there is so much one can do in terms of appearance and persona through clothes, hair, make up or lack thereof, one’s name etc, that will affect how people treat you. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and saying ‘wear high heels, little lady!’ But instead of a genuinely inclusive approach that celebrates individuality and challenges retrogressive and harmful stereotypes we’ve got - well, insanity.

Yes King

The thing about Fox and Owl is that trans men - and those with all related increments of 'gender identity' - adore them.

They bring an element of 'edgy' and 'cool' to the party.

Especially Fox with their (poignant) photos of their tattooed bare chest, post mastectomy.

Fox drip feeds elements of their journey to the fans, which helps plot the path for those that come after.

Fox and Owl's specialism is young people, including children and teens.

If you are a young trans man you know they've got your back. They are your tribe and will defend your right to be your 'authentic' self and speak for you when you just 'don't have the words.'

Which is fair enough, until you start to apply critical analysis, ask reasonable questions and raise concerns about the harmful and regressive nature of what is being promoted.

Except... how can you believe that gender identity is the most important thing that makes a person who they are, much more important than sex and chromosomes and all that stuff, yet also believe that you don't have a gender identity?

So most of us can be included as transgender nonbinary then because we don't identify with gender at all?

Based on the transgender bible of wiki gender.

The transgender umbrella includes anyone who does not identify with the gender that matches their sex. This not only includes transgender binary- those who identify with the gender opposite their sex, but also transgender nonbinary which are people who either move between genders (genderfluid) or anyone who identifies with no gender at all (agender).

Meaning we have to change society socially and legally to fit their personal definition and meaning, and also have to change the definition and intrinsic meaning of who we are.

And adopt a definition that forces us to affirm the stereotypes that have oppressed us, and give up language that enables us to fight for our rights . I know women are supposed to be 'nice', but it really shouldn't be surprising that we are angry.

Am I really missing something here?

Fox and Owl are invested in many ways in upholding the trans narrative.

@OldQueen1969

Just googled the difference between non-binary and genderfluid.... am none the wiser but understand it's something to do with an umbrella.....

I've got 3 umbrellas

Ok so Fox was born a woman, has undergone medical transition so now has secondary male sexual characteristics, but now feels that they are not fully a man or fully a woman so is non-binary.

I don’t wish to be rude or hurtful to Fox (or Owl, who is effectively in the same position) - or to mis-state their position in terms of surgery etc - but doesn’t this illustrate the madness of things quite well?

1. ‘Feeling’ one’s sex doesn’t match one’s gender;
2. Going through a lot of difficult, painful & expensive changes to transition (‘change sex’), on the basis of a feeling about ‘gender’;
3. Realising that perhaps one doesn’t ‘feel’ like the other gender after all;
4. Now with a body that’s biologically one sex but treated with surgery & hormones to ‘become’ the other sex, and not ‘feeling’ either male or female.
5. Deciding okay, I must be non-binary then.

Wouldn’t it make more sense just to be a GC person? In Fox’s case, she could simply adopt an androgynous look, name and persona. I think ‘they’ pronouns are stupid but Fox could definitely use them and I’m sure people would comply.

Am I really missing something here? And I would note that although it’s secondary, the changes Fox has been through must have been difficult/distressing for her loved ones too. Surely all this can be avoided?

Yes, that's an explanation which satisfies an understanding of what Fox and Owl may think and feel. And, as adults, their choices are their own.

However, the problems for all of us start if those who believe in and enact this choice for themselves seek to compel the rest of us to believe too.

Meaning we have to change society socially and legally to fit their personal definition and meaning, and also have to change the definition and intrinsic meaning of who we are.

Actually Grey it is you that is exclusionary. If you include males as in female single sex spaces and intimate services, then I and other victims of sexual trauma are excluded, because there is no way we could use them with males present.

Thank you for that. Don't think your 'inclusion' makes a good person. I have suffered years of pain, flashbacks and trauma, like many victims of abuse. Don't we deserve some consideration? Some privacy? And then you come on here finger wagging and calling us bigots. You need to take a long hard look at your priorities.

Hmm I'm not sure that helps me understand. What does 'medical transition' mean?

I think fox identifies as trans because he has changed physical aspects of his body’s sex characteristics with hormones (testosterone) and surgery away from his female starting point to a deliberately more masculine appearance/ voice.

Non binary because he doesn’t identify as either a man or a woman.

If you don't exclude males from feminism, the result is that you exclude many females from it. You exclude vulnerable women and girls from their sex-based rights. Maybe that's not the intent, but it's the effect in practice.

But greyt
Someone has to stand up for people who have problems which stem from their reproductive biology.

Or do they. Perhaps there no problems at all and those cervix havers are just bleating on about nothing. Bunch of Karen's.

True last

You don't get to determine who is or isn't a feminist

Ahh but its ok for a bunch of males to determine who is and isn't female......

The difference is, they actually engage with you as opposed to the mumsnet way of "shutting down" the amount of times I see someone told to leave a thread because they have a different opinion on here is astonishing, but that's why I choose to discuss these topics on other forums. A lot of time there are references mumsnet to provide a bit of lighthearted relief.

Go boil ya head.

I will no doubt see my comment mentioned in PINK NEWS as mumsnetter threats to boil trans people given how much they love to twist the truth.