Diversity week-do my dc need to know they're teachers ' sexuality?

it is part and parcel of a tendency in education toward bringing things into the curriculum that don't belong there

I agree that the information was shared in an incredibly clumsy way which won't lead to true inclusion and may have the opposite effect by othering pupils who share characteristics with those teachers, and causing them great anxiety if they feel they might be encouraged to 'bring their whole self' to school.

I also personally have an objection to declaring that one's identity is gay, as opposed to one's sexual orientation being gay, because it suggests that it's self-determined and self-defined. One's sexuality can only be oriented in relation to others, so it feels artificial to express it in this way.

I also feel that the notion of 'gay' as an identity akin to gender identity assists in the argument that sexual attraction is something that should move with the times and adapt to accommodate heterosexual relationships pursuant to gender ideology, as if it is controlled by the person and can flex as necessary when told to.

And obviously, it would be horrific and completely bizarre if pupils were quizzed on their sexuality and forced to reveal this publicly.

However, if it comes up naturally in conversation, I strongly disagree that it's inappropriate for pupils to know a teacher is gay. As a gay teen myself, it was reassuring to have a gay teacher in my school, and she was the only one who tackled any of the homophobic bullying going on. She also stopped a lesson once because a kid made a sexist comment and she explained why gender stereotypes were a load of bollocks and incredibly harmful to everyone.

And later, as a gay teacher who wasn't out, it was really awkward because teenagers are curious and would pry into my personal life - they wanted to know everything. Obviously I maintained professional boundaries, and part of my job was to teach boundaries to the kids (e.g. explaining why it's not appropriate for me to tell them my address). But had I been out, I would have seen no issue with mentioning a partner.

Yes, OP's DD's situation sounds awful, but not because knowing a teacher is gay is inherently inappropriate for pupils to know - because of the way that information has been conveyed.

Sexual orientation is completely different from gender identify. If OP had an issue about the impact on safeguarding of this material in relation to paving the way for discussions around gender ideology (and the ones I'd be concerned about are listed above) then I can see the tangential relevance to FWR.

But the OP and title seem more concerned about the inappropriateness of knowing a teacher is gay. As if being gay is related to gender or in any way similar to being trans. It's not.

Personally I think it's not as conscious as a Trojan Horse, but it is part and parcel of a tendency in education toward bringing things into the curriculum that don't belong there, and which makes it a heck of a lot easier for people to accept things that are Trojan Horses.

Because talking about personal information around sexuality with students is something that has form in other areas related to safeguarding

It doesn't sound like a feminist issue, more an LGB one.

Of course some safeguarding issues are also feminist issues, but that doesn't mean all safeguarding issues are feminist issues.

Are you suggesting that gay inclusion might be a Trojan horse for gender ideology?

If you're not the OP, I would still be interested in the OP's answer as to why they chose FWR for this.

Forced teaming hits the nail on the head to be honest.

The whole video sounds really ill-conceived.

@titchy yes, in french lesson I remember saying I liked a lot of things that I didn’t actually like just because they were the words that I knew. Ha ha!

Don't most people make those up for their language GCSE though? My dc has the most interesting weekends according to their Spanish textbooks - mountain climbing, play football, skateboarding!

The MFL curriculum doesn't force them
to disclose anything, or have anything disclosed to them.

This is one thing that I think is ignored in so much of this PHSE stuff - respect for children’s boundaries and the right to say “no, I don’t want to talk about sex and sexuality in front of a room full of people”

Yes, absolutely.

I've been thinking and I can't recall any of my teachers talking about their personal lives. We didn't care, they didn't discuss it. Honestly. I had some pleasant relationships with some teachers, respectful, engaged, etc. I had absolutely no idea if they were married, where they went on holiday, what their beliefs were. Actually, I do remember in Modern Studies all of us asking our teacher how he voted and he [sensibly] point blank refused to say.

@didolamenting the gcse syllabus for French and for German (DP is a French and German teacher) mandates topics for pupils to cover, including oral exam questions which are families, hobbies, what your house looks like, holidays, and so on. You’re jumping on the PP for having those conversations but that’s just what GCSE MFL is - maybe it shouldn’t be, but it isn’t her fault that that’s what the syllabus is!

This is one thing that I think is ignored in so much of this PHSE stuff - respect for children’s boundaries and the right to say “no, I don’t want to talk about sex and sexuality in front of a room full of people"

Yes. Especially as there is actually quite a narrow set of acceptable views, and any deviation from that will get you branded as hateful.

The more I think about it the more I think it is intrusive and inappropriate and not respectful of children’s boundaries

Well poster lazylinguist seems to have no concept of boundaries.

The more I think about it the more I think it is intrusive and inappropriate and not respectful of children’s boundaries.

This is one thing that I think is ignored in so much of this PHSE stuff - respect for children’s boundaries and the right to say “no, I don’t want to talk about sex and sexuality in front of a room full of people”

As an older teacher I would be concerned staff especially younger ones were being jollied into this without being aware of potential implications/repercussions that could arise. Revealing a MH issue via a poster on a video is a terrible idea.

Pigeon faces that’s a really good point. I’d not heard of the term ‘forced teaming’ before.

I also think it’s disingenuous to compare what the OP describes to a teacher mentioning a spouse. This doesn’t take account of the complex ways in which our words convey implicit messages.

Take 2 (wholly imaginary) statements by a (male) history teacher.

Statement 1 - my husband and I are going to the Tower of London at the weekend.

Statement 2- I am gay and proud.

Statement 1 will convey that the teacher is gay, and that he’s happy for pupils to know this. Statement 2 also conveys this. But the difference is that Statement 2 also contains a vital subtext which is -‘I am sharing personal information with you’.

Statement 1 does not contain this subtext (or not to anything like the same extent) and it’s the subtext that worries me. I think it’s akin to forced teaming. (I’ve definitely had men use unwanted confidences, with this sub-text, as a way of convincing me we had a non-existent personal connection).

I think teachers should stick to Statement 1 type statements.

In some cases these things are obvious, like a pregnancy, and I don't think it's necessary to police ever little thing we say. But I'm not sure I like the idea of having to celebrate things that I have issues with. And I am sure other people who have issues with other things are he same, YK?

I'm an MFL teacher. A lot of my lessons involve asking kids about their hobbies, families, opinions, likes and dislikes etc in the foreign language. I usually start the ball rolling by giving examples about myself. I have described my husband and children and talked about our holidays, hobbies etc countless times. All the pupils I've taught over my 25 year career have therefore known I am heterosexual. Is that a problem?!

Yes it is a problem. How bloody inconsiderate and intrusive. I had a very nice but very, very unconventional family. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to discuss it with a nosey- parker teacher in front of the whole class.

Judging by the title, it's homophones you want to watch out for.

OP, why did you post this on the feminism board?

@fascinated
“It’s cringeworthy, absolutely cringe inducing, to think of any teacher discussing a forthcoming wedding with pupils. It’s absolutely none of their business and distracts from the business of learning.”

This genuinely made me feel really sad. Some of my memories of my best teachers focused around them sharing some of themselves with the class. The science teacher who came to sports day with his new baby to show everyone, the tutor who showed us pictures of his honeymoon. It made teachers feel like real people and felt like they they valued us.

There’s a difference between sharing personal information in a professional and boundaried way and sharing too much or inappropriate information. Sharing a little bit of something personal, in a professional way, is great for relationship based practice.

Children aren’t robots....teachers aren’t robots....they’re people.

The objection that "the teachers' sexuality is none of the children's business" would have more weight if there were some kind of "blank slate" according to which the children would make no assumptions about the teachers and just leave all these details open, if they're not filled in.

But we all know that it isn't like that. Most times, the alternative to telling someone you're gay is not them seeing you as an open book, it's them assuming that you're straight. Straight is still the default assumption unless you're told otherwise, particularly for inexperienced kids.

And as pp have said, teachers flaunt their sexuality all the time, every time a male teacher mentions their wife or a female one their husband. You could even go further and say every time they conform to gender stereotypes in dress, grooming etc. This idea that schools, workplaces etc. are free of overt displays of sexuality right up until the point where one of the gays breaks the silence, is completely disingenuous. The silence is not that of no-sexuality. It's just what you get from the lack of friction when ALL accepted displays of sexuality are straight ones, to the point where nobody notices them any more (apart from the kids who notice them because they define a world in which they have no place).

I would be worried about this, as I think children have the right not to know anything about their teachers - or at least to choose how much they want to know.

Sharing personal information can be intrusive. I mean, if someone at work came up to me, someone I wasn’t close friends with, and started telling me personal things about themselves, religion, sexuality, vales, I’d feel invaded. I’d feel: no, I didn’t ask for this, I’m not your mate, go away, give me space.

It makes me think a bit of ‘forced teaming’ as a tool for breaking people’s boundaries.

The more I think about it the more I think it is intrusive and inappropriate and not respectful of children’s boundaries.

@BlusteryShowers or not you could be gay and have used a sperm donor, had ivf........

I don’t agree with changing names anyway - I didn’t precisely because I didn’t want folk moseying in my business. What’s wrong with Ms.?

But why is that an issue? We speak a different language at home which baffles lots of people. I don’t really care though. Nobody needs to know about anyone else’s private life, especially not kids that they teach or people who are clients etc. You need boundaries.