A query about third spaces

And on the violence in male toilets. Yes it happens.
The other thing that happens in some male toilets is sex.

The dynamic is very different to the ladies.

How much is actual violence and how much is deep discomfort.

It's for men to sort out. Of course they are happy to just shunt out the men they don't want to us, why wouldn't they?

Catching up but wanted to respond to this

'The truth is that in many places there isn't room for a third space and also there is a significant cost barrier that can't always be overcome.

These were the arguments against accessible disabled toilets, and were easily overcome in practice. Accessible toilets were up and running in most places in a couple of years, there is a blueprint and experience in having done this.'

Were you involved in the activism for this? My understanding is that it took years of pushing. Getting it up the agenda. Lobbying individual places /councils to get it done etc.
And that provision is still not good enough.
If you have different info or were involved in the whole thing I'd be interested to hear.

Just feels the oh it was easy is a bit dismissive of all the work that went on to get any of this done.

Men's, Women's and Uni-Sex...that should do it.

By the way the photo above shows a mixed sex provision that is virtually empty, and a Women's toilet ( in France) at which a queue has formed outside.

Men's, Women's and Uni-Sex...that should do it. so longs as the single sex provisions were numerous enough for all of the women that would choose to use them, over uni-sex:

Imagine if it turns out most people prefer to be in spaces of the same biological sex... for privacy and dignity reasons as well as safety?!

Well according to the tras everyone us happy with it, they In fact prefer it because apparently they mean less bullyingthanks to women being human shields .

So plenty of people happy to use it no? I mean Jameela for starters will be thrilled to share it with them.

I mean they wouldnt be lying to us about the public opinion and willingness to use them would they? We should put some trust in them.

Cross- posted with mermoose - good points!

The fact of the matter is that if I go into a public toilet or changing room and a trans woman appears then I won’t go there again, which means I as a woman have no space to use at all, if I was in hospital or a place where I had no choice to be I would be very distressed and no amount of chanting ‘transwomen are women‘ is going to change that. I feel this way because I have been in situations where strange men have followed me to uninhabited areas and groped and grabbed at my body and exposed themselves to me, and I don’t want it to happen again. I know I am not the only woman to feel this way.

aesop oh yes i realise that. They shouldn't do that. My point was re third spaces somehow being "outing" which it wouldn't be if it was the default. I wonder how many people would actually use it as the default though...! Imagine if it turns out most people prefer to be in spaces of the same biological sex... for privacy and dignity reasons as well as safety?!

Unlike a lot of other people posting, I did envisage third spaces as being specifically for trans people, rather than unisex. This isn't because I want to 'humilate' trans people or because I don't care about their dignity; it's simply because I think it's the most sustainable an sensible option going forward. People have mentioned that those who think TWAW can also use those spaces so they're not seen as trans-specific, but isn't this facilitating the guilt-tripping that many young women feel, to somehow make TW feel better? There are a lot of women, young women especially, who will not have the courage to be openly GC but who nonetheless do not really want to share spaces with males. And being a believer in gender identity doesn't make women any less at risk of sexual harassment or assault. I'm not happy with the idea of some women only realising what they've been supporting when they've been harmed by it.

As for third spaces being humiliating - what is the point of the trans movement if it just accepts that being trans is humiliating and embarrassing? And tells us the only way to give trans people dignity is to pretend that they're not trans?
The trans movement should be working to gain acceptance of trans people as trans people. Then it won't be embarrassing for them to use third spaces.

Single-occupant bathrooms for trans people mean that:

• Single sex bathrooms are kept, which is necessary for the privacy, comfort and safety of everyone
• trans people with genuine dysphoria are not lumped into communal spaces with predators like Karen White
• trans people who actually do care about the comfort of other people can be confident that they have a choice of facility that doesn't encroach on others

Women who are obsessed with trans safety can use the gender neutral one in their workplace too, to normalise the fact that the gender neutral loo isn't 'just' for transpeople

Toilet facilities in an office or day time workspace are quite another matter to toilets in the night time economy ( & certain other situations) It matters not is they are full stall or not - if they are accessed via a communal corridor behind a closed door.

You'd need 4 spaces not 3. Gents, ladies, transwomen, transmen. Where do no gender people go?

And, (as usual), no thought for the less able. More casual ableism.

Best thing, really, is to completely turn disabled provision over to fannying about with this nonsense and solve two problems with one stroke. The disabled will finally get the message they aren't welcome anywhere (seems some have been a blt slow on the uptake with the pisspoor provision of any facilities) and we solve T rights forever.

If I sound unfairly bitter and sarcastic, it's because I have friends who already don't want to leave the house because they struggle with their disability. And nothing being discussed here is going to help that.

I can’t stress enough how much (due to past experiences) I want women’s spaces to remain just that, women’s spaces but... I also don’t want genuine trans people to live without the basic dignity and safety im seeking to preserve for myself. How do you reconcile these notions? Or do you not? Is this just an example of TRAs ruining it for everyone

You are also starting from an assumption that there is such a thing as a 'trans person' - which implies a distinct category of human being that is separate to male or female; is 'other' to male or female. That is somehow born as a third category ( not the same as inter-sex), and this is entirely part of nature.

That, in itself, is a pretty big leap of faith/ acceptance of ideology.
People who identify as trans are numerous and vary various in their back-story. Most people here are suggesting it is not possible to change sex, and that identifying as 'trans' is a product of the mind and not of the body.

Sex is about the body/the biology and the consequences of this in the life and lived experience of a person.

Fourthly Old Crone will be along to tell you that allowing people to use the toilets opposite to their biological sex is colluding with their mental illness and supporting a lie - that people can change sex or live as a sex they are not. Apparently that isn’t helping anyone.

But field, it's a fair point. OP used the word humiliating. I'm sure they mean well, and of course someone with GD might feel that way, but people who are not dysphoric should not reinforce and promote the idea that it's humiliating to not pass as the opposite sex. These attitudes shape society, it's not just about people with GD.

If third spaces are specifically for trans people (of both sexes), how does that provide any dignity for the trans person who has no nefarious intent and truly just wishes to pass and live as the opposite sex? Wouldn’t that be really quite humiliating to have to go, as a passing man or woman, into the ‘trans’ toilets and ‘out’ yourself

You seem to be seeing this entirely through a trans lens. If you view it through the lens of women accessing and using single sex spaces, services and sports you might see it very differently. And after all, it is women's spaces that are at stake here

It doesn't matter if someone has 'nefarious' intent or not....the point is about the privacy, dignity and safety of women and girls in spaces, services and sports that have been set up to cater for their specific needs. Whether a person thinks they 'pass' or not, is not the issue. ( most of the time they don't). It really is about colonisation and everything that implies or suggests.....and the only solution is for 'other' spaces

Our swimming pool changing rooms have the "changing village" as the sort of default space (enclosed cubicles, although should be more enclosed imo) with the single sex spaces for those that want them. I guess I imagined the third spaces would be the default for all the millions of people claiming they don't care what sex the person next to them is, leaving the ladies' free (and not turned into the third spaces) for women who need it.

On the contrary. This is the set up at Center Parcs. Nearly everyone is changing as families so use the changing village style cubicles. But that didn’t stop TRAs who demanded access to the (communal) female space.

OP what you are ignoring here is TRAs don’t want access to toilets, they want access to women.

Very clearly put, Aesop

The term 'transsexual' is now frowned upon. If someone is transgender, then surely all they need to do is live as 'the opposite gender'... whatever they perceive that to be. Transgender people should be absolutely free to do that, and should not be harassed or discriminated against for so doing... any more that anyone else should for violating an artificial stereotype.

or mothers with buggies, who cope in female loos by leaving doors open while they wee with a buggy in front of them

I always think about this. It's quite common as people feel at ease doing this in the ladies but I wouldn't be able to in a mixed space.

Our swimming pool changing rooms have the "changing village" as the sort of default space (enclosed cubicles, although should be more enclosed imo) with the single sex spaces for those that want them. I guess I imagined the third spaces would be the default for all the millions of people claiming they don't care what sex the person next to them is, leaving the ladies' free (and not turned into the third spaces) for women who need it.

I don't even think we'd be that bothered except now we've seen the numbers of people saying "I'm coming into your space, how are you going to stop me? "

S E X I S M

this

‘Live as the opposite sex’ requires sexism. It requires the opposite sex to live and be treated differently. The only aspects of ‘living as the opposite sex that doesn’t require sexism are those bits to do with our BIOLOGY.

I don't understand why they're not scared of females. They do know we're not made of candy floss and perfume, don't they? Yes, its a lot less likely they'll be physically attacked but anyone who thinks they'll get a smooth ride in a female changing room clearly has never been a girl. All the sisterhood stuff is bollox especially at school.

Surely a trans woman who passes poorly or not at all is just as likely to be assaulted in the free for all third space by a man, as in the men’s bathroom?

Or in the women's bathroom too if they become open to anyone who "identifies" as a woman. Opening the ladies up to TW puts everyone in danger of predatory men who would exploit that access.