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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A query about third spaces

160 replies

SometimesLateAtNight · 21/06/2020 22:43

When people talk about third spaces as a possible solution, do they generally mean that the third space is for anyone who cares to use it, or that the third space is reserved for trans persons only?

I thought I was about as peak trans-ed as I could get but I saw a post today about this issue and suddenly I can’t get past the third space thing seeming.... wrong. I’ll try and attach the post here.

If third spaces are specifically for trans people (of both sexes), how does that provide any dignity for the trans person who has no nefarious intent and truly just wishes to pass and live as the opposite sex? Wouldn’t that be really quite humiliating to have to go, as a passing man or woman, into the ‘trans’ toilets and ‘out’ yourself?

And if the third spaces are for everyone, how is the safety of trans people any better protected than if they used the bathroom which accords with their biological sex? Surely a trans woman who passes poorly or not at all is just as likely to be assaulted in the free for all third space by a man, as in the men’s bathroom?

I can’t stress enough how much (due to past experiences) I want women’s spaces to remain just that, women’s spaces but... I also don’t want genuine trans people to live without the basic dignity and safety im seeking to preserve for myself. How do you reconcile these notions? Or do you not? Is this just an example of TRAs ruining it for everyone?

A query about third spaces
OP posts:
GimmeAy · 24/06/2020 11:57

About 20 years ago, a night-club (a sort of an elitist sort of place) introduced unixex toilets. It was a bit weird having men walk in and out and putting your lippy on next to a man, but it was novel and funky and cool back in the day.

I recall working for a Building control company a few years ago and one of the surveyors had gone to visit a sort of place of worship for Jewish people I believe. Apparently the women and the men were separated and there were only two stairs/entrance-exits - one for the men and one for the women, whereas legislation required more than one exit for the size of the building - don't quote me on the exact details. The person she had spoken to was adamant that the women could not use the men's stairs etc. Her question was whether she could sign off on it for fire safety. I recall several questions back and forth between my boss and the surveyor, but I think in the end they signed off on it somehow by essentially dividing the place into two or something. Wish I had ear-wigged a bit more as it was an interesting discussion.

GimmeAy · 24/06/2020 11:48

I'd imagine if the queues for the women's toilets/changing rooms were too long, women would have no issue going into the trans room instead. Which sort of proves the point that there's no real issue.

ShinyFootball · 24/06/2020 11:44

Indeed I do

BigGee · 24/06/2020 08:55

Shiny, remember the Green party referring to us as "non-men"? Good times...

BigGee · 24/06/2020 08:54

I understand your approach, OP. I will campaign for third spaces vociferously, and with all my might. We're just being told repeatedly by the tra movement that its not what they want. They want my spot.

ShinyFootball · 23/06/2020 22:37

Years ago on here I said we would get s new hierarchy

Men (original definition)
Women (who used to be men)
Everyone else (I suggested the term non-people)

A few people said don't be silly.

But this is literally what harrop has said.

The prevalence of the phrase 'women and c*s women' is increasing.

Antibles · 23/06/2020 20:49

A third space for those who think/wish/pretend they are something they are not is just (expensive) pandering to an untruth.

It doesn't offer the validation wanted anyway.

SometimesLateAtNight · 23/06/2020 20:31

Intentionally not internationally, sorry!

OP posts:
SometimesLateAtNight · 23/06/2020 20:12

*This situation is a problem about how some men are scared of male violence'.

Why are women expected to resolve it?

Why indeed!

(Apparently to prove one is not a bitter harridan who only cares for women, according to the OP).*

excuse me? I have said nothing of the sort. In fact, to the contrary, I have stated that it ought not to be women’s problem to resolve, and would be much obliged if you would point me to the place where I have called anyone a harridan.

As I said upthread, but will repeat here again, I wanted to know what a third space was to look like in practice. You’ve been at great pains to suggest that my question was nonsense, which may or may not be true. The reason WHY I wanted to know was nothing at all to do with whether allowing bio men access to women’s spaces is wrong. It IS wrong. Many of the reasons why have been expressed very clearly here.

That said, I stand by the fact that once my needs and the needs of my sex are met, I hope that members of the other sex do not suffer if an alternative to suffering - an alternative which does not impinge on my rights or comfort- is available. My question about what a third space was, was asked in order that I could form my own view on whether to actively support the notion of a third space. NOT so that I could decide, ‘ah now that I know what it is and that it’s not nice for them we’d better let them in with us after all guys’. 🙄

I agree with the PPs who have said men don’t tend to worry about the comfort dignity or protection of groups other than their own. PPs have suggested that this means we as women shouldn’t trouble ourselves with thinking about any way of alleviating any suffering which may exist for men. I strongly disagree. It is not a race to the bottom. The fault lies with any men not thinking of others, not with a woman or women who think of others. That may well be socialised thinking, that we ought to care for others. But instead of beating it out of ourselves, we (by we I mean society, not women, god help us!) should be beating it IN to men. What kind of society are we aiming for, if we internationally adopt an approach of only looking out for our own group? I am curious- if my question had been regarding how best to stop the disproportionately high rate of police murder of black men, would you have advised me it’s men’s problem to solve? Because it’s not my problem. I’m a white women, I’m not getting shot by the police. But I’d rather they weren’t either. Can this really not be extrapolated to men who truly think they are women, assuming they exist?

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 23/06/2020 12:57

With swimming pools, having third areas is common in Europe (called cabins) and they are used by families and couples rather than splitting up into separate areas negating the need for two shampoo bottles and two locker tokens. This was the case at Bath spa too. Worked fine

Third areas are common in the U.K. too, I thought they'd be the norm by now except in very small pools.

Michelleoftheresistance · 23/06/2020 09:29

(Apparently to prove one is not a bitter harridan who only cares for women, according to the OP).

I think the OP is still in the grip of socialisation that says females not thinking of others before themselves are selfish, unkind and nasty. And that it's rude to have any kind of feminism or care for females only as a group: females look after everyone equally.

I've been there OP. Was there for years.

The trouble is, you do eventually see the appalling entitlement and hatred of women inherent in this political lobby and their demands on government, you see the needs of female people that the lobby want made 'hate speech' to even mention, never mind provide for, and you see that they want what they want for them like a toddler demands, with no thought or care for what happens for the vulnerable females left without provision or care in their wake.

And at that point, I'm afraid 'nice' can get to fuck. I don't indulge that sort of appalling behaviour in my own toddler, never mind overgrown ones who ought to know better. And I care about what happens to everybody, particularly those being stripped of their equality needs to meet selfish, uncaring wants when there are plenty of ways to meet needs that would balance everyone's needs.

And you see already I'm sucked back into 'but I must care about the males in this situation'?

It's insane. The males in this situation care absolutely nothing about the females affected by them. I can find in a second a bunch of rape threats, death threats and tantrums at females who dare to say hang on a minute: I can find absolutely bugger all of any male born person in this lobby saying 'but what about those females we're about to disenfranchise'? Or 'hang on, our values about inclusion and naming own identity actually work both ways'.

That really does never happen.

JellySlice · 23/06/2020 08:49

*Bugger spending bandwidth working out all this third space nonsense for people who are about as grateful as that ex-leper from Life of Brian. We should be spending this mental energy making toilets better for actual women and making our own lives easier.

And the rule should be, if you can write your name in the snow with perfect precision, the ladies' loos are not for you. Because you don't need to sit down except to poo, and you probably don't need toilet paper. And you can physically use a toilet even if someone else who can write their name in the snow accurately has mysteriously inaccurately widdled all over the toilet seat and floor. Simple.*

Eloquent and accurate.

(Unlike the aim of most snow-writers.)

okiedokieme · 23/06/2020 08:45

I assume fully self contained and can be used by anyone, in particular handy for dads with daughters and mums with sons too young to go into toilets alone.

With swimming pools, having third areas is common in Europe (called cabins) and they are used by families and couples rather than splitting up into separate areas negating the need for two shampoo bottles and two locker tokens. This was the case at Bath spa too. Worked fine

WhatTiggersDoBest · 23/06/2020 08:39

(and by "write your name in the snow with perfect precision" I mean "have a penis" in case that's not clear).

WhatTiggersDoBest · 23/06/2020 08:34

I was heavily pregnant in China, Japan, England and Ireland last year (I had to do a lot of travelling). In China, the toilet provision is squat toilets, and I was totally unable to use them because my joints had gone funny and I couldn't physically squat, my knees buckled and I got stuck, and there was often not one single seat toilet (only provided in most parts of China for disabled people, and often not provided at all), I really do think women's needs are different to men's when it comes to toilets and that they think we just have a pretty dress on the sign so it's for people who like to wear dresses.

The fact that a tossy man "invented" a toilet last year that was angled to stop people sitting on the toilet for too long by making them feel uncomfortable says it all. Men go to the toilets for recreational purposes. They like to use the cubicles to "read a magazine" or whack one off (or to buy/consume illegal substances), with or without another person present. Men don't have to do all the faffing around women have to do in a toilet. They don't have to get their fingers right to the start of the feed on those horrendous "smart one" dispensers to get more than one sheet because it's their period (because they don't have them). They don't have to wipe the seat clean to have a quick wee because the person before them was on the blob and didn't wipe up. They don't have to fiddle with their clothing and find somewhere to put their bag when the hook on the back of the door's been broken because their clothes are designed for function over form with actual, usefully-sized pockets and their tops don't have dangly bits like many of ours do (especially our jumpers).

It says it all that a man looked at the queue leading out of the ladies one day and thought, "I know, they're spending too much time sitting on the toilet chatting and having pillow fights and comparing their breasts, I'll invent a loo that they can't sit on and I'll profit massively from causing women discomfort with my angled toilet solve all their problems."

Natal women physically need to be able to sit down, especially when pregnant. Women's toilet provision in England is already not great compared to other countries; in Japan, all the toilets (male and female) have little fold-out child seat places inside the cubicle attached to one wall, away from the toilet, where you can put your baby safely while you use the loo.

In Ireland, I haven't seen any toilets that didn't have extra space for a pushchair in the cubicle (although I'm sure there are some, somewhere). Per square metre, we are not as pushed for space as Japan, so if they can sort their loos out to work better for women, we can, too.

Bugger spending bandwidth working out all this third space nonsense for people who are about as grateful as that ex-leper from Life of Brian. We should be spending this mental energy making toilets better for actual women and making our own lives easier.

And the rule should be, if you can write your name in the snow with perfect precision, the ladies' loos are not for you. Because you don't need to sit down except to poo, and you probably don't need toilet paper. And you can physically use a toilet even if someone else who can write their name in the snow accurately has mysteriously inaccurately widdled all over the toilet seat and floor. Simple.

midgebabe · 23/06/2020 06:57

Sorry stick, you are incorrect

The status quo is that Male and female facilities are separated based on sex ( biology. It's why you don't get urinals in the ladies and san bins in the gents )

You want to change that to a gender separation

You have to provide the evidence to support that

Melia100 · 22/06/2020 23:49

This situation is a problem about how some men are scared of male violence'.

Why are women expected to resolve it?

Why indeed!

(Apparently to prove one is not a bitter harridan who only cares for women, according to the OP).

ShinyFootball · 22/06/2020 23:46

Bottom line is, men are raised more to look after them and theirs and less to look after/ care for others.

This stuff comes under 'women's problem' and they automatically tune out.

Many only really get interested if it's one of 'their' women at risk.

And even then, thinking about it. I've seen loads of threads on here about girls getting harassed/ sexually assaulted at schools and what should I do etc. Casting my mind back, the threads seem to show that the mum talks to the school etc. So even then, it's for the women to tackle. A 'womens' thing.

How can we get anywhere while most men continue in this way?

This situation is a problem about how some men are scared of male violence'.

Why are women expected to resolve it?

ShinyFootball · 22/06/2020 23:41

Agree inebriati

In the past you could challenge/ the women would all look askance/ get security if a shopping centre or something.

This was important as a very large minority of men enjoy unsettling women/ making them feel uncomfortable etc. I suppose get a kick out of boundary violation?

And of course they can do all that easily without doing anything illegal.

And that's where a huge problem lies - men in general have no idea what creepy men do, when you try and explain it it sounds trivial, and even when it's bad they prefer to ignore it ( metoo).

The answer given is well if they do anything illegal then you can report it. That's s bit fucking late isn't it.

And say there is some weirdy man hanging around in the ladies, staring, trying to talk to women and girls... That's not illegal. But it sure as fuck makes women and girls feel uncomfortable, scared, threatened.

Even women, many women, give men 'the benefit of the doubt' when other women talk about this stuff.

I just think that men in general are so oblivious to how it is for women and girls, and a lot of that is deliberate because it's in the news etc all the time. And then because they have never been a 5'0 14 yo trying to deal with a creepy man who won't fuck off, they just don't get it, mainly because they aren't interested.

And that's before you get to mixed hosp wards, communal changing for sports, prisons etc.

OneEndedStick · 22/06/2020 22:30

No, Midge. I expect people who argue that its 'too dangerous' for some feminine/less masculine males to use the male toilets provided specifically for all males, to provide the evidence to back their own claims.
I'm a little traditional that way: You make the big claim; You provide the proof. Just like, if you claim men are women if they "identify as women" (ie.If they say so), it's up to you to provide the proof.

Thelnebriati · 22/06/2020 22:23

I know there are no laws about toilets but not many years ago, a man found in a woman's toilet had some explaining to do.

Deliriumoftheendless · 22/06/2020 22:21

Well presumably all those kind male allies will be using the third space to support their trans friends which may make things safer. I mean, that’s what male allies want isn’t it? Not just to get transwomen out of their loos.

I also don’t understand why we aren’t being asked to accept trans people for who they are, instead of acting like there’s something wrong with being trans. When the LGB community fought for rights they did that by showing heterosexuals that they were ordinary, regular people. Gay marriage wasn’t legalised for gay people to say they they lived with a same sex sibling.

ShinyFootball · 22/06/2020 22:17

Poor old Eddie izzard (not a tiny bloke) got treated horribly by some teenage girls when he emerged from the ladies in men's clothes.

They said what are you doing in here.

Luckily this adult men had the wherewithal to shout at them and chase them down the road. From the ladies.

Well done Eddie!

TorkTorkBam · 22/06/2020 22:12

In my experience men are much less generous than women are about other men's motives for hanging round girls.

midgebabe · 22/06/2020 21:58

Oh, I read it as women being accused of attacking. No saying never, just suspect it would be as rare as women attacking men

YI could see that men would protect the social norm which could lead to violence