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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bunbury's guide to community disruptors part 5

983 replies

ItsLateHumpty · 20/06/2020 15:04

The useful Bunbury Guide to Spotting Community Disruptors is constantly evolving.

The best research and advice is not to engage with community disruptors and trolls. As ever, if you suspect troll activity, report it to MNHQ.

Remember our monitors would like to silence us by fair means or foul.

This is a continuation of the Public Service Announcement thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3691023-Bunburys-guide-to-community-disruptors-part-4

If and when you see threads plopped into FWR, especially a curious repeat of well worn topics, maybe check for poster history before engaging. AS is your friend.

There are a number of posts/posters/threads that are reproduced on Twitter or Facebook to foment controversy using screen shots & flagging to either MNHQ to have threads or posters deleted.. Sometimes, it’s used to approach commissioning editors with ideas for articles. It’s a tiresome tactic that we always have community disruptor posters who themselves post the comments that they then highlight elsewhere as purported evidence of racism, religious intolerance, anti-men sentiments, or transphobia.

Some helpful links can be found in the ‘Break it Down for me’ and ‘It never happens’ threads but in essence FermatsTheorem recommended “that in the absence of a block/hide poster button, I suggest the following strategy (given that you're talking to the lurkers).

Do not name check the sealion. Instead, respond to a depersonalised paraphrase:

"It is sometimes erroneously suggested that blah. Blah is wrong for the following reasons (short and pithy). If you need more information re. debunking blah, here's a link."

Then (this next step is important to combat derailment) go back up thread to the last useful contribution to the discussion, make sure you do name check that contributor, and pick up the discussion from that point.”

Go well Witches Gin

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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OhHolyJesus · 23/08/2020 17:16

I think there really is a dulling of people’s sense of right and wrong around this issue because they feel everyone is doing it

I blame the media personally, the surrogacy agencies and support groups are still pretty niche although growing in popularity, most people would only hear about surrogacy because of Lance Black or a mum having her daughter's babies in Woman Magazine - until about 4 years ago that was where I formed my perspective on it too (my mum used to buy it).

We're hearing a bit more now about your average gay male couple doing it, obvs Ricky Martin and Elton John stories have been around for years but it's becoming more common and for people to talk about it in general (more infertility, more treatments available, more likely to happen) so more in public consciousness.

She said she was on MN before but left so maybe it wasn't the smoothest re-entry.

nachthexe · 23/08/2020 17:10

@EchoCardioGran

I think we need to start a FWR chutney crowdfunder. I can see it's going to be a long hard winter for nachthexe ( Do your visitors swoop in with their engines switched off in the dead of night, so that you can't hear them arriving Wink )
No but that’s TOTALLY how I arrive back in Europe Grin
Winesalot · 23/08/2020 16:52

I think the poster for the success thread may be a poster who has not thought about several sticky points and frankly does not want to because they then will not get the second child they obviously desperately want... above all else. I think there really is a dulling of people’s sense of right and wrong around this issue because they feel everyone is doing it and that they cannot process the grey areas for fear they want get that child.

I get the feeling that the tshirt loving poster will never see anything outside getting that second child so they will not be back. They didn’t get the congratulatory support they expected. Even some congratulatory posts were a bit ‘well, I don’t think I personally could deal with giving away a child I carried for nine months...’. So no, really did not go towards getting the positive response they wanted.

SocialMedea · 23/08/2020 16:50

chutney crowdfunder

That's beautiful. Something cellar doorish about it.

OhHolyJesus · 23/08/2020 16:37

Bold fail sorry and the Ukraine thread has been deleted. Not sure what happened there.

EchoCardioGran · 23/08/2020 16:37

I think we need to start a FWR chutney crowdfunder.
I can see it's going to be a long hard winter for nachthexe
( Do your visitors swoop in with their engines switched off in the dead of night, so that you can't hear them arriving Wink )

OhHolyJesus · 23/08/2020 16:36

Oh thanks Humpty I really appreciated your comments (and also Georgina's who posted in much more reasonable language than I did!)

There was something about that thread that didn't ring true overall and the language was rather cheerful but that could have been forced, perhaps she was simply looking for lots of congratulatory messages and was sadly disappointed. All those damned ethical questions getting in the way!

Funny how the Law Commission stuff came out at the end. Oddly a couple of old threads got some visitors as well, around the same time as that new poster appeared...just off to check if they haven't been pulled.

nachthexe · 23/08/2020 16:31

@ArabellaScott

Sorry about the roof. And the branston. Would a chutney recipe help?!
Ooo g’wan then. Or save it for a thread where a recipe might be useful and tag me Grin. I’m already feeling stressed about Christmas lol (we always have family visitors from around the world and due to the whole pandemic saga we might be on our own for the first time in 25 years). A good chutney might see me through!
ItsLateHumpty · 23/08/2020 14:48

OhHolyJesus I (in my youth) though surrogacy or donating eggs was an awesome, generous thing to do.

I think I was sold on the propaganda. And didn’t really think about the child.

Time and growing up have taught me much, but we’re all still learning. To that end I posted my questions on the ama / surrogacy thread and I’m still trying to unpack why I’m really not comfortable with the reply or the delivery. It’s very pat. Or something.

Anyway, I wanted to say I am really appreciative of your posts there and I’m still reading. When I’ve worked it out I’ll reply on thread.

Thanks Brew

OP posts:
ItsLateHumpty · 23/08/2020 14:37

Ooo AlbusSirius that’s a good witchy spell. I hope they remember how when it’s needed (again) - we’ve lost some really informative threads because the OP or a PBP is not in good faith and spams.

My preferred outcome would be to lock a thread and leave all intact so we and lurkers, and our monitors, can see exactly what’s been said and there can be no rewriting of facts.

But first things first - not being deleted would be good.

OP posts:
AlbusSirius · 23/08/2020 12:47

So MNHQ have discovered that it's possible to delete all the OP's posts (if they turn out to be a troll or a PBP). That might be useful in FWR, rather than deleting entire threads.

Winesalot · 23/08/2020 12:44

Yes. That was heart breaking to read. And the pressure that was put on those women to take a caring role until the ‘real’ parents could come. One agency released the surrogates details on SM in an attempt to bully her. And the conditions they had to have their forced c sections. Truly heartbreaking.

OhHolyJesus · 23/08/2020 11:50

I think there has been lots about it in the news

If only we would see the other side presented in the news as well, if just for balance if nothing else.

I saw a Cyprus Newspaper article yesterday, covering the fact that 14 surrogate mothers fled Ukraine post birth but pre-legal handover. They gave birth in makeshift hospitals, one baby died and they fled home to their families during Covid. The agencies doxxed them and aren't paying them.

You won't see that in Women's weekly let alone BBC or ITN.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/08/2020 10:51

It is quite interesting to see the morality of using a body, even a willing persons body, in this way to get what you want being ignored because it is such an emotive issue

I think there is a lot to unpack here about the way motherhood has been constructed as essential to women/femininity. This is not to say that women should not desire motherhood, but I think a lot of the 'understanding' of surrogacy comes from this construction.

Winesalot · 23/08/2020 10:43

agreed Errol.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/08/2020 10:38

It is quite interesting to see the morality of using a body, even a willing persons body, in this way to get what you want being ignored because it is such an emotive issue.

Men have been using women's bodies for millennia.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/08/2020 10:37

The surrogacy Momma ones seems a bit ... contrived to me.

Winesalot · 23/08/2020 10:32

@AlbusSirius

What is it with Surrogacy today? Has there been a klaxon somewhere Confused
I think there has been lots about it in the news so I guess there is no surprise there is lots of discussion about it.

It is quite interesting to see the morality of using a body, even a willing persons body, in this way to get what you want being ignored because it is such an emotive issue.

ArabellaScott · 23/08/2020 10:28

Sorry about the roof. And the branston. Would a chutney recipe help?!

OhHolyJesus · 23/08/2020 07:56

I think Albus you're right! Someone somewhere has found the board and the 'angry bitter ill informed' women need to get back in their box.

Delphinium20 · 23/08/2020 06:03

@nachthexe I think you might have been watching one of my posts where I mistakenly presumed the identity of a person (MN took it down after I requested it). I was at first upset that someone thought I was a troll, but after finding this thread, I understand now. Finding FWR and the brilliant women here has been such a balm. I feel a bit like a kid sister begging to be included, but thanks for all the great work on MN.

nachthexe · 23/08/2020 03:19

Regarding branston, it was vile. It looked fine, but tasted like inhaling a chemical waste plant. It wasn’t even out of date. First off (when I recoiled) I thought the bloody buns had been tainted by oven cleaner from me putting them straight on the oven shelf. (And then I realised that no oven cleaner had been used in my skanky oven in living memory so I opened the bun and gave it a sniff.) That took me to the jar. I am devastated. We do not live in the motherland and there are very few things that we bother to buy. 😂
Anyhoo, I made dh investigate. He said it was fermented. That sounds like a good thing, but I can assure you that fermenting whatever the hell branston is made of is decidedly bad.
And I posted on the AMA because wtf. Bodies should not be for rent. Babies should not be for sale.
And besides which, I’m in a pissy mood because not only is my branston inedible (and I can’t get any more) but a guy came round to quote to fix the ceiling leak by the bathroom fan and apparently I need a new fucking roof. Of course I do. There’ll be no imported branston now lol.

AlbusSirius · 23/08/2020 02:35

What is it with Surrogacy today? Has there been a klaxon somewhere Confused

OhHolyJesus · 22/08/2020 22:48

Talking of some uncomfortable issues Chatty I have notice some activity tonight of a new poster posting the same comments on a couple of old threads relating to the 'ultimate feminist act'.

Possibly my paranoia...

highame · 22/08/2020 22:43

Yes, I know it's an old one but hopefully the feelings of protection of free speech will win out. Further deterioration and even stronger targeting. I think I'm just hopeful and the odd (old) article helps

Thought it was worth posting. James Kirkup still writes a good support piece, so he's not been TWAWed

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