Excluding trans women from women's single sex spaces is discriminatory - Human Rights Watch

They are advocating the 8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

Indeed.

But what is a transwoman? Any male, LITERALLY ANY MALE who says that he is a woman

Yes! 👍🏻 and I'm fucking sick of hearing otherwise.

An interesting read here.

wlrnmedia.wordpress.com/2020/06/19/trans-rights-are-mens-rights-no-wonder-they-clash-with-feminists/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

" ... We are particularly concerned by media reports suggesting that the government plans to exclude [some men] from women-only spaces. This would be a seriously regressive and discriminatory step. The government’s own 2018 consultation on the GRA states clearly that “trans and non-binary people are members of our society and should be treated with respect.” However, this proposal would force [some men] to use male facilities, despite strong evidence that this puts them at risk of violence. Conversely, there is no evidence that allowing [some men*] access to women-designated spaces, which has been the case for a number of years, puts other women at risk."

• Edited for clarity, use of 'men' (pl) as per confirmation by Lord Ralph Lucas 5/5/2020, "Definitions. The government has helpfully pointed out the definitions that they use "Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'"

twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1257642470692868097

The term 'trans woman' does not, to my knowledge, have such clarity of definition provided by UK government. The only known shared characteristic of those who describe themself thus are that they are 'males of any age'

"We are particularly concerned by media reports suggesting that the government plans to exclude trans women from women-only spaces."

But what is a transwoman? Any male, LITERALLY ANY MALE who says that he is a woman.

They're delusional, they're not taking into account reality and facts at all here.

Yes, there have been multiple assaults and worse on female people through people identifying as TW using female spaces. Karen White and Katie D's victims being the ones off the top of my head. Why do those females and their horrific, lifelong damage experiences get vanished from reality? Mixed sex space incidents happen constantly to females, by male people, and how those male people feel about their authentic inner selves and what gender label they feel is part of their best life at the time of assaulting really has no bearing on this being utterly unacceptable, foul behaviour in which a female significantly suffers and a male has a bloody nice time.

How many TW have made the media for being assaulted in male spaces in the same time? Because this would be trumpeted from every activist and all over the BBC and anywhere else, the names would be known as the evidence for the agenda they seek.

What about the significant numbers of females who will have no provision of any kind as a result of all spaces being mixed sex? They get vanished too. It's apparently better to meet males' needs for better happiness than for vulnerable and marginalised groups of mere females to have their needs met at all.

The only reason for all female evidence and people being vanished (and talked about in this moaning tone as if they're some physical barrier to shift) and the only care and consideration at all being male people's needs and feelings, is male supremacy.

This is an agenda that sees males of superior value and importance to females, and is prepared to lie and lie and lie to achieve a world in which males dominate all spaces and the cost to females is stuffed under the rug.

Is there an organisation like FPFW preparing a response to this delusional and supremacist lunacy? I'm very happy to help, the Baroness also may be.

" ... We are particularly concerned by media reports suggesting that the government plans to exclude trans women from women-only spaces. This would be a seriously regressive and discriminatory step. The government’s own 2018 consultation on the GRA states clearly that “trans and non-binary people are members of our society and should be treated with respect.” However, this proposal would force trans women to use male facilities, despite strong evidence that this puts them at risk of violence. Conversely, there is no evidence that allowing trans women access to women-designated spaces, which has been the case for a number of years, puts other women at risk."

Ralph Lucas is a Conservative back bencher in The House of Lords.
May 5th 2020 he published clarification he had received from the government of the definition used for man and woman. This is based in Equality Act 2010

twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1257642470692868097

It may be useful to apply such definition to statements such as this in order to make the sense clearer.

As "Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'" therefore surely a male of any age may thus be described as a man?

Including transwomen in women's single sex spaces is discriminatory. As soon as a transwoman enters one it becomes mixed sex.

Excluding Transwomen from women’s single sex spaces is discriminatory

Is it not that excluding transwomen from mens single sex spaces is discriminatory?

Even transwomen with a gender recognition certificate (GRC) can be lawfully excluded from single-sex spaces for women in the UK. It’s just that this is rarely applied and lobbying organisations such as Stonewall have also asked for these provisions to be scrapped. It is possible to get a GRC without hormones or surgery.

Conversely, there is no evidence that allowing trans women access to women-designated spaces, which has been the case for a number of years, puts other women at risk.

Yeah right. They haven’t watched this, then.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=9NpIy-0_esU

there is no evidence that allowing trans women access to women-designated spaces, which has been the case for a number of years, puts other women at risk.'

Completely pisses me off. Totally misses the point.

As discussed repeatedly on this board.

Firstly - it does affect safety - TW are adult males. By definition woman and girls safety is at risk.

Even if physical safety wasn’t an issue, adult males - by definition entering these spaces - harms women and girls.

There is no consent from women and girls to share spaces with adult males.

Even if a physical asssault has not happened, they advocate:

Adult males watching young girls changing - This used to be called voyeurism. An offence.

Adult males undressing in front of young girls - used to be called exhibitioning/flashing. This used to be an offence.

How are we supposed to differentiate these men?

Removing the rights of women and girls to dignity and privacy as well as safety means women and girls WONT use these spaces - and will be discriminated against.

But nobody is banning transwomen, just self-id transwomen surely. Isn't that the distinction we're concerned with?

female prisons, sorry

Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are very similar orgs and they have both lost the plot on women’s rights. Amnesty was created back in the 1960s, to protect prisoners of conscience, HRW in the context of the last phase of the Cold War (70s/80s). Things that used to trouble them were free speech and communist repression. Both organisations are heavily influenced by American (liberal) elites and donors. I don’t think we should be surprised about this and this is not the first time they have been accused of bias.
Their logic is flawed, they don’t engage with the evidence (website listing offences committed by transgender people is ‘trans crime UK’, I believe, all based on news reports) or the dissenting view of experts (prison governors who are very clear that exclusions of male offenders should be applied to prisons).

They are advocating the 8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

Human Rights Watch is a well-established NGO, with a long history going back to the Cold War. It is true that it’s close to government.

'However, this proposal would force trans women to use male facilities, despite strong evidence that this puts them at risk of violence'

Facilities. Always back to bogs.

There is no law in the UK to say who uses which bogs. It was a social norm and convention (now totally undermined).

Have they cited their strong evidence?

'there is no evidence that allowing trans women access to women-designated spaces, which has been the case for a number of years, puts other women at risk.'

None? No evidence at all ever?

That makes trans women less of a risk to others than men, women, and children. Who represent different levels of risk but can act illegally.

Haven't they heard of Karen white? Wax my balls? Etc etc

Not RTFT yet.

No mention of trans men in that extract in op.

What a surprise

To hell with what men and transwomen say!

Women = sex is still law under the Equality Act 2010;

I'm beginning to find this 'safe spaces' issue to be cyclical.

If women are afraid that predators will use the access to women's spaces in order to commit an assault, then that also applies to transgender women. Somebody who is determined to attack a transwoman I'm pretty sure would gladly enter the female bathrooms under the guise of equality in order to attack said transwoman.

Therefore it seems to me that kicking and screaming and insisting that women back off and open their bathroom doors to all and sundry is literally not going to solve anything.

medical and other barriers to gender recognition for transgender individuals, including diagnostic requirements, “may harm physical and mental health.”

My DD has severe anxiety and can't attend school because being around other people causes her severe mental and emotional distress.

She's being treated with therapy and medication to hopefully get to a point where she can eventually be around people, through learning to cope with the reality of the world.

At no point in her treatment has it been suggested that all the other pupils should be sent home so that she can use the school without experiencing distress.

The notion that women's spaces should be opened up to maintain the fiction that TWAW in case a transwoman gets triggered by realising they're in a male body is insane.

I find this worrying, people take HRW seriously. It's the support of these various well known and respected (by many) groups or institutions that have caused a lot of this problem.