Be an ally to lesbians: stop using LGBTQ+

Nowhere on here have I ever said sex doesn’t matter, in fact to the contrary, sex does matter, trans women are trans women and are not the same as biological women. You can check my previous posts if you doubt that. I don’t think all trans people think sex isn’t real, I don’t think all trans people think lesbians are transphobic for not wanting to have sex with a penis, and I don’t think all trans people think that male bodies belong in female spaces, hence, I have nothing inherently against trans people and I don’t want them removed from LGBT, and I don’t appreciate someone speaking for me and telling our allies that’s what they should do.

Excellent post Elsie. I feel exactly the same.

based on me disagreeing that trans people need to be kicked out of LGBT

No one, anywhere, has said this.

The discussion is about LGB people no longer using all the letters because of the clash of ideology with homosexual people's rights, and the treatment of lesbians. And support of the LGB alliance which focuses on homosexual people's needs and rights which are under attack from T centred LGBT movements.

No one, anywhere, at any time, has said anything about 'kicking' any group out. Where did you get that interpretation from?

them being trans is inherently homophobic.

Go back and re read.

Transgenderism - a political movement and ideology - is inherently homophobic because it discounts the reality of biological sex as any classification or marker. A woman is anyone who defines as one. Which means that a homosexual female is criticised as a genital fetishist or worse for not being inclusive with her body of biological males who identify as women. Females choosing sexual partners on the basis of biology (homoSEXuality with the clue in the name) is apparently transphobic. Which has to mean that to not be transphobic involves being homophobic and being against homosexual people discriminating their sexual partners based on recognised biological sex.

The politics. The ideology.

Which is separate to an individual person. I don't for example think everyone who voted conservative at the last election hates disabled people, but I could easily argue that conservatism is disablist. Do you see the difference?

I have been reading along but now feel like I want to stick my head round the door & say OP I hear you & I support lesbian women. I am grateful to the #gettheLout campaign & friends for opening my eyes.

Well you’ve made an awful lot of assumptions about what I think based on me disagreeing that trans people need to be kicked out of LGBT and that you can’t say you like trans people and in the same breath say that them being trans is inherently homophobic.

Nowhere on here have I ever said sex doesn’t matter, in fact to the contrary, sex does matter, trans women are trans women and are not the same as biological women. You can check my previous posts if you doubt that. I don’t think all trans people think sex isn’t real, I don’t think all trans people think lesbians are transphobic for not wanting to have sex with a penis, and I don’t think all trans people think that male bodies belong in female spaces, hence, I have nothing inherently against trans people and I don’t want them removed from LGBT, and I don’t appreciate someone speaking for me and telling our allies that’s what they should do.

And there are pages and pages and pages and pages of receipts of the most horrendous homophobic, misogynist abuse online. Entire blogs devoted to just that.

So saying that it never happens is at best misinformed and at worst just lying.

Attached is the illustration of my point on my previous post.

What flying said.

LGB can exist, the LGB Alliance can exist, alongside something like Stonewall and the alphabet soup.
The CRE can exist and so can specific lobbying or support groups for different ethnicities.
Referring to oneself as LGB or as a lesbian or as a homosexual and supporting groups and organisations that address the specific needs of LGB or lesbian or homosexual or bisexual people isn't exclusionary (negative), it is specific.

Why would I want to hijack someone else's charity, or club night or support group? Why would I plonk my arse down in a group therapy session for survivors of grizzly bear attacks if it had nothing to do with me? What exactly am I being excluded from?
I'm not sure of it's FOMO or just stereotypically male behaviour or what.

A bit like how I'd never ever want a woman to have sex with me if she didn't really want to, whereas plenty of men get off on paying or coercing or cajoling or tricking unenthusiastic women into submitting to them sexually.
If there are groups that choose to include "non-binary" men or transwomen of whichever type by mutual agreement great. The problem isn't the existence of those groups, which some posters are very enthusiastic about, but the difficulty in having a group for just women. There is no respect for women's right to choose female-only groups.

The GRA allowed primogeniture to continue, the Masons let transwomen join but not women - with little pushback because women don't have the same sense of entitlement to push their way in where they aren't wanted (with the exception of the transman in the gay sauna story!)
Once you see this pattern it's very hard to unsee.

you claim to speak up for women and women’s rights, but any time a woman comes on here and says something you disagree with you pile on

Only if that woman is hand waving away all our rights!
Men cannot BE women. Women are adult human females. Men don’t need women’s rights because they are all designed to compensate for being the smaller of the sexes and for being the sex that bears children.

Fairfax

LGB is about same-sex sexuality.

T is about performative cosplay.

Give that as one of your reasons on your next applicable job.

Also, given that Q is specifically mentioned and included in OP’s argument, it might be good to do some extensive research on what constitutes current queer theory and whether you as a lesbian can happily align yourself with it.

Do you know what is cruel? Telling women and LGB people that we can't have boundaries. That we must give up our spaces and organizations and feed the cuckoo without questioning the situation. Otherwise we are being hostile.

I edit documents for a living. I cannot get away with removing the T without cause I g trouble but I make an active effort to remove the Q and in particular the I.

I can argue that intersex people have complained at being included and that Q is a slur.
It's my small stand for the community

Placemarking (just to see if anyone answers any of the questions before bogging off).

(I would be happy to set out for you why your comment above constitutes a childish retort betraying a childish approach to the wider topic being discussed, if you like. But I thought you might consider it a little too hostile and perhaps you’d rather attempt to dissect it for yourself. However please do let me know if you’d rather i back up my assertion myself.)

any time a woman comes on here and says something you disagree with you pile on, ridicule and bully them off the thread. You clearly only value a woman or a lesbian’s opinion when it is the same as yours.

The way you value women and lesbian opinions on here that differ from yours, you mean? I don't see much tolerance or valuing on your part.

Pointing out the issues with your argument isn't bullying. Debating with you isn't mean. It may be pointing out that the point you're making is ridiculous, which is not the same thing as 'ridiculing you'.

This is the childish bit:

And saying someone’s very existence is homophobic is showing that you like them? You can’t hide your dislike of trans people when making statements like this, if you think someone just being trans is homophobic, as a lesbian, how can you then say you don’t dislike trans people? That makes no sense what so ever.

Read it back, in relation to the point(s) you were arguing against, and see if you can determine what makes this a childish retort, betraying a childish approach.

Explain what exactly is childish about stating that OP cannot speak for all lesbians? And that not all lesbians want to exclude trans people from LGBT? That’s a fact, whether you like it not. OP is entitled to her opinion, but should not speak for all lesbians with it.

Set out your argument, addressing points made in reply to you below, one by one, and refuting them with coherent reasoning, and I absolutely will respect your position.

Until you can and will do that I’m not required to afford your position any respect. You have a right to hold it of course, and I completely respect that right. But you’ll have to do a lot better in terms of argument if you want to earn my respect of your position. That’s how persuasion works.

You guys don’t want a discussion it’s evident, you claim to speak up for women and women’s rights, but any time a woman comes on here and says something you disagree with you pile on, ridicule and bully them off the thread. You clearly only value a woman or a lesbian’s opinion when it is the same as yours.

I have not been hostile anywhere.

Disagreeing with your central premise, however vehemently, is not, in fact, hostility.

Pointing out that your arguments are childish in the extreme and entirely devoid of robust reasoning and indicative of a complete lack of critical faculty is not, in fact, patronising.

If you cannot handle robust challenges to your badly thought out comments then another arena might suit you a lot better.