Big Brother wants 7 years data if you are a rape victim

It's very unfortunate that when a crime happens and is investigated, it doesn't just blow open the life of the accused, it blows open the life of the victim. That is part of the larger tragedy of crime.

No. That is a choice we make as a society.

If you are burgled or mugged or scammed, do you have to hand over your entire medical records, emails, phone data, etc etc so the police can assess whether you might have concocted the whole thing?

In a just and enlightened society, for example, rape victims would not have to disclose their entire medical records so the defence barrister could try to paint a picture of them as "mentally unstable" and therefore not "credible" as a witness. Evidence of vulnerability and trauma would not be used against victims; we would know that rapists target the vulnerable who are viewed as "not credible" and how trauma manifests.

And trials would not be about which story teller is best at convincing a bunch of ignorant randomers who to feel sorry for.

Some of the ignorant black and white thinking on this subject from some posters is quite remarkable. But explains why rape is allowed to go unchecked in our society.

How would it work if your phone was a hot pulsing ball of "transphobia", like mine probably is.

That was certainly along the lines of what I was thinking!

People saying they have nothing to hide are being naive.

This, this and this again.

Some of the responses on this thread show an almost touching level of trust in the police/legal system/general establishment.

I was iffy before but the Belfast/rugby players trial sealed the deal for me.

ditto. My daughters are aged 18 and 19. After the belfast rape trial (and the stanford one), I talked to both of them about this subject and explained why I would most likely never encourage them to report a rape.

I think "law and order" has never protected women and certainly doesn't do it now. No one could look at the belfast rape trial or the stanford rape trial and think reporting a rape would be a good thing for a woman.

The girl Roman Polanksi raped said the rape trial was worse than the rape. That doesn't diminish the rape - it should instead highlight the awfulnesss of the court system.

*Anything not related to the rape cannot be used against you in court about the rape. It would be inadmissible. They can only use relevant evidence. What they are looking for is evidence of consent to sex. They don’t care about anything else for the rape case.

*What a joke. Do you have any idea the moral standards women's sexuality it held to? And the ridiculous defences and justifications men and the defence try to use to claim it wasn't rape.

She has tinder and a history of sleeping around, she's promiscuous so why wouldn't she sleep with this guy too

She uses porn, sometimes involving fantasy/role play/scenarios, that's just what happened here and now she's embarrassed and changed her mind

She messaged her friend saying she though he was attractive, she wanted him, it was obviously consensual as she fancied him

She's sent nude pictures in the past, she's sexually promiscuous, that means she obviously chose to sleep with this person

She sent a text to her friend saying she was angry at him, she's obviously made up this case out of anger to get revenge

They've exchanged sexually explicit messages in the past and have clearly slept together before so why would this time be any different

There's a plethora of completely legal and private things held on a woman's phone that have no relation to the rape case which someone could use to try and justify that the sex was consensual. Sexism and the policing of women's bodies is so engrained in our society that any woman who dares to engage in casual sex or with multiple partners is seen as promiscuous so why would they have said no to this guy too.

Anyone who thinks that police procedurals have anything in common with reality beyond the uniforms is making a big mistake.

Who would report a rape? Seriously?

I was iffy before but the Belfast/rugby players trial sealed the deal for me. After seeing what that woman was subjected to in court and on social media I will never report a rape.

Also.

Ched E. Remember the woman never reported him. She reported a lost handbag. He was arrested based on what HE told the police.

His texts with his mates said, got s girl etc.

She has had to have at least 3 new identities. He is playing again I think. After getting his conviction overturned when they found some men who said that she liked what they did, previously.

There was another case ?Ireland where the texts were appalling and they got off. Another one who didn't want to report as she knew how it would go.

But a woman saying you're kind, I love you, and having had raped fantasies (shared with him? Maybe, maybe not) is enough for him to get off.

It's all pretty awful tbh.

Who would report a rape? Seriously?

And why the last 7 years.

Say I got raped yesterday. Why are texts older than yesterday of any relevance?

Or just texts to that man?

If my husband raped me, there are a trillion texts saying I loved him. And loads of boring crap. There would be 10000s to read through. This is the only way to get s rape case to court now? Of course they aren't going to plough through all that shit for a crime that would be difficult to prove anyway.

Rape prosecutions and convictions are at an all time low remember.

Pallisers if you read the link above it says this is very very disproportionately used in rapes reported by women.

Even though the cases that collapsed were across the board.

If you report another crime - theft or assault for example - are you also expected to hand over your phone records for the past 7 years?

Yes, they might not scream he didn't do it, but I think the point is that defendants also have the right to show evidence that would suggest they are innocent.

It's not going to help the prosecution when the defence requests access to texts that they didn't know about. Do people want these cases to win or not?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-48086244

Original article.

The case that brought about so many changes and was widely reported as 'woman lies man life ruined' hinged on these texts which iirc the defence were not advised of:

'It is understood messages found on the alleged victim's mobile phone included some saying what a kind person Mr Allan was and how much she loved him.

There were also references to rape fantasies, Mr Allan's lawyer Simone Meerabux confirmed at the time.'

At the time I thought the case had collapsed due to something really major in her phone.

The things above don't shout 'he didn't do it' to me.

Read the link- woman had phone taken for over 2 years and when she got it back, it hadn't even been switched on.

Why wouldn’t you? Do you think that you are above the law? But not your rapist?

Its not just about crimes like say i bought drugs.

I can see a defence lawyer use the line of "she sent nudes to an boyfriend" against a victim. To show a casual blase attitude to sex or to say, see, she consented to him before if it was an ex partner

Do they take the rapists phone off them?

Yes, of course. I hate to say, do people not watch police procedurals? I realise they are fiction but looking through computer and phone data is a big deal now, that is also the case in real life.

This is also why they want and/or need the information from the victim as well. It's very unfortunate that when a crime happens and is investigated, it doesn't just blow open the life of the accused, it blows open the life of the victim. That is part of the larger tragedy of crime.

It's not a matter of the police being asshats. They just can't investigate if they aren't allowed to look at the things that will show what they need to show to get a conviction.

Similarly, if you want a rape case to go forward, you usually have to submit to a medical examination. That's equally if not more invasive than looking at phone data. If it happened in your home or car, you need to let them into your home or car.

So much of our life is online and recorded now.

'Lol. They don’t actually take your phone and keep it. They just ghost the data on the phone and any memory chips, takes five minutes.'

Not sure this is the thread for a lol.

Anyway. The reports last year had women saying phones had been kept for over a year.

There was an initiative to say that should offer a phone as a replacement for while it was gone, to support low income women.

What is your expertise in this area, plan?

Oh wow.

This came up a year or so ago I think, it was in the papers etc.

They were keeping the phones for a year or more. I assume you can't get another one with the same number? Anyway women without much cash it's not easily replaced.

Our phones are like a part of us now. So many people would have stuff in their phones they wouldn't happily let others see. How many men would be comfy with the police seeing their search history, even entirely legal stuff?

It's also the new knicker showing. Plenty of women sext, send pics etc. Who wants the police seeing that? Who wants it produced in court as proof they are immoral or whatever.

One famous case a while back, the fact the woman had texted him after was used to 'prove' there was no rape. The behaviour of women after rape is still not understood.

In addition. My phone has access to my work email, documents, chat channels etc. This is not rare. A lot of women work in areas that are sensitive or confidential. What happens? The police wouldn't let you log out of stuff, obviously. Work would not let you hand it over. Stalemate.

All of this came about because of some collapses in prosecutions. Not just of rape, of crimes across the board. The papers only reported that it was an issue in rape cases and did not mention the others at all. This sort of reporting really bothers me. It adds to the idea that rape cases are 'different' somehow.

Obviously handing over a phone will be a deterrent. Women are people, not angels. Who wants their saucy messages and pics with their ex read out and shown in court? What about women and girls in chaotic situations? The exploited girls in Rotherham etc, what do you you think some of their phone content was like? They were fucked up by what was going on. Probably messages not so pretty. Plus teen girls exaggerate a lot about experience etc, many teens from all backgrounds.

A glib 'I'd hand it in I've got nothing to hide' doesn't cut it. Is justice for rape victims if only those with totally 'clean' phone content can stand a chance of getting it? Are we back to the 'perfect victim'?

What if you had previously consented to sex with a person who then went on to rape you?

Anything not related to the rape cannot be used against you in court about the rape.

Why would anything be used against the victim in a trial? The victim isn’t on trial.

People saying they have nothing to hide are being naive.

Defence teams will use anything they can. For example participating in a MN thread about rape and how woeful the conviction rates and sentences are- could be used to try and imply you have falsified a rape claim to prove a point. Or if you had fallen out with your partner and had been texting a friend about how angry you were with him this could be used to suggest you accused him of rape as revenge.

I don’t have my phones for the last 7 years, I don’t even have the same phone number or email accounts.

Lol. They don’t actually take your phone and keep it. They just ghost the data on the phone and any memory chips, takes five minutes. Then you sign permission for them to access the electronic data trail you’ve left behind via your sim and in the cloud and which are held in a database by your phone and internet provider(s). These companies are the ones with your data going back 7 yrs.

They don’t manually track through your texts, iMessages, etc either. They’ll first check and see if you knew your rapist and what communications you had prior to the day and time of the rape. They’ll check your location data to see that you actually were where you say the rape happened when it happened (won’t look at any other location data so if you were at a rave, or cage fight no worries) They’ll run facial recognition algorithm on your photos to see if the rapist is in a photo (not manual, like a search engine, only hits show up).

Really, it’s a deterrent because many people have put out misinformation and panicked women into thinking there will be an office full of detectives giggling over their selfies. It’s not like that. It targeted searches usually using algorithms. Think of your phone as the internet and all the police do us type into google key words to search for hits in your data. That’s it. They don’t have the people or time to go looking in every corner. There is too much data for that.

Why 7 years? Why not 3 months?

Do they take the rapists phone off them?

Yes. The difference is that the accused has no choice. Their phone and computer, pad, etc are all seized. Only the victim is given a choice, but warned that without their phone evidence, they may not be able to proceed with a trial due to lack of evidence.

It's an outrageous way to treat a victim, would the people saying it is ok be happy for every text, photo and messenger conversation to be read by others? I can say there are texts I have sent in the last week I don't want people to read.

As for crimes, the victim is not being investigated as a suspect, the police shouldn't be trawling their phones as if they are.

So what are they going to do with this information?

What if you don’t have it?
I don’t have my phones for the last 7 years, I don’t even have the same phone number or email accounts.