Should the GRA be repealed ...

It is however easier/ clearer in those circumstances where sex is relevent due to Safeguarding for the official identity documents accepted to be those known to have specific and accurate information confirming age (DOB) and sex (M/F).

This would make it easier for organisations/service providers to make explicit that there is specific Safeguarding relevence in seeking confirmation of a person's sex as well as age in official identification documents.
It would make it clearer for those who do not wish to disclose their sex as to the specific reasons why this is relevant and then provide them with choice as to whether or not to proceed with required disclosure.

As to whether it would become an indicator the the person was trans I don't think it would.

If DVLA discontinued use of the sex/gender/gender identity marker it would not identify a person as being transgender since all new driving licences would not have this information.

I don't like the idea of forcing people to "reveal" their sex in order to (for example) buy alcohol.

Exactly for buying alcohol, hiring a carpet cleaner or floor sander or renting a flat then sex is irrelevant to the person/business requesting identification.

It is however easier/ clearer in those circumstances where sex is relevent due to Safeguarding for the official identity documents accepted to be those known to have specific and accurate information confirming age (DOB) and sex (M/F).

I love the idea of having different options for photo ID. One (passport) which accurately records sex, and one (driving license) which doesn't record sex at all. And no need to do altering of birth certificates. When applying for jobs where sex is relevant because of safeguarding you generally need at least two pieces of ID anyway - it would be easy to specify that one must have your sex on it.

I don't like the idea of forcing people to "reveal" their sex in order to (for example) buy alcohol. But sometimes it is relevant.

I like Maya's idea. As to whether it would become an indicator the the person was trans I don't think it would. Look at Ms. It used to be seen as something only divorced women used whereas now it's used by a huge number of women no matter what their marital status.

The GRA no longer seems to satisfy anyone. It's too onerous for one side and too fictional for the other side. Its original purpose has gone.

It's not free, either, but it's only £14 (if you apply online, £17 otherwise), so much cheaper than a passport.

Yes, that seems to cover it all Jelly.

www.gov.uk/renew-driving-licence

Absolutely. This has always been my position.

OldCrone Apologies and thank you for the correction. Renewal is free though, which was the main point I was making. Whereas an adult would have to pay in excess of £150 every ten years to hold two passports.

The costs associated with driving licences are much less. They do not have to be renewed every ten years & there is no charge for making changes.

Photocard driving licences do have to be renewed every 10 years. If you still have a paper one it's valid until you're 70 (unless you change your address).

People have duplicate IDs and passports for different reasons.

I think the thing is to be as easy and liberal as possible in allowing people not to declare their sex where it doesn't matter, and as clear and straightforward as possible that when they do it should be a accurate.

There is a not insignificant cost implication in obtaining a duplicate passport.

"You will have to pay the same fee that is required for a first passport. The price can vary but it is usually around £80"
www.businesstraveller.com/features/apply-second-uk-passport/

A second passport which does not have sex marker is not duplicate it is different to the original which has sex as well as DOB, nationality, place of birth listed as relevant information.

The costs associated with driving licences are much less. They do not have to be renewed every ten years & there is no charge for making changes.

[quote boatyardblues]There was a really good thread about this on Twitter earlier that made some humane, thoughtful suggestions for supporting trans people’s rights without undermining sex as a protected characteristic. The relevant posts are about 3/4 of the way down this thread: mobile.twitter.com/Grace_Speaker/status/1272891976946462722

Most pertinent tweet (in screengrab): mobile.twitter.com/AlessandraAster/status/1272879005641986049[/quote]
Now THIS has got me thinking.

Thank you.

apologies, link to DVLA quoted above:
www.gov.uk/change-name-driving-licence

Also, ensuring UK Driving Licences did not have a sex/gender identity marker would enable those people who identfy as 'non-binary- to have a 'gender neutral' form of official id.

DVLA has already got itself into a pickle confusing sex, gender & gender identity

'Change the name or gender on your driving licence'
(extract)
Send DVLA your old driving licence along with the right application form and any supporting documents to change your name or gender.

The process is the same if you want to change your title, for example from Ms to Dr. You do not need to send evidence unless it’s a hereditary title.

You’ll get a new licence. You can still drive while you wait for your new licence.

It does not cost anything to change your name or gender on your driving licence. (continues)

Just Be Yourself Trans Resources:
DVLA
(extract)
In order to change your name and gender on your UK driving licence you do not need to do anything special but should just follow the standard process for changing your name and photo. However the gender marker on a driving licence is not obvious and it may not be immediately obvious if it has been changed. This document includes an explanation of how your gender is recorded as part of your driver number." (continues)

"The next six characters represent your date of birth but the year is split up giving the unusual format YMMDDY. Therefore a person with a male driving licence that was born on 23rd January 1985 would have the next six characters be 801235. However, a person with a female driving licence gets 50 added onto the month so a person with a female driving licence that was born on 23rd January 1985 would have the next six characters be 851235. That single digit is the gender marker on a driving licence – it will be 0 or 1 for male and 5 or 6 for female." (continues)
justbeyourself.org.uk/resources/trans/dvla/#:~:text=However%20the%20gender%20marker%20on,if%20it%20has%20been%20changed.&text=That%20single%20digit%20is%20the,5%20or%206%20for%20female.

Provisional Driving Licence costs £34
UK passport costs £75.50

This would make it a more inclusive option. Driving Licenece is accepted as proof of identity in most circustances. For those circumstances where sex is relevent for Safeguarding reasons, it would not be.
The current sex/gender identity marker on driving licences, "it will be 0 or 1 for male and 5 or 6 for female" could be easily discontinued.

Actually not nurse as there are the existing exemptions anyway so already covered.

For example if someone uses their passport to provide proof of age at the supermarket, they don't necessarily need people to see what their sex is.

And if they’re walking through an airport and need to get searched by a particular sex in front of a queue of people?

Or a nurse on a ward?

Also wouldn’t transsexuals be the only people with this short form document? It may as well say Certificate of Transness.

R0 - I don't think that would meet the ECHR ruling which was specifically on birth certs.

(Also not everyone has a driving license )

People have duplicate IDs and passports for different reasons.

I think the thing is to be as easy and liberal as possible in allowing people not to declare their sex where it doesn't matter, and as clear and straightforward as possible that when they do it should be a accurate.

If sex is relevant then need to show a piece of ID that shows it where it isn't you don't

For example if someone uses their passport to provide proof of age at the supermarket, they don't necessarily need people to see what their sex is.

Yes I understand this.
The point of disagreement (I think) is that I woud argue there should be a form of official id which does not indicate sex and which is available for everyone eg driving licence rather than some people having duplicate versions of official id (such as passport) with sex redacted for those who chose.

But isn’t gender identity just personality? Wear what you like, have hair whatever length you like, wear make up if you like....but males cannot become women. We know that, they know that. Respect is a 2 way street and men who for whatever reason ‘identify as a woman’ must respect womens rights to single sex spaces-too many currently are not, with no consequences.

I think you might be on to something there Maya.

Simple, clear, practical & inclusive.

The laws need to work for everyone & giving males legal recognition as females is clearly problematic. This problem isn’t going away, the sooner government sort it out in a logical, safe way, the better.

Oh just got to the bottom, @MForstater what a great idea.