Should the GRA be repealed ...

I think people who have more pressing concerns than a Goldsmiths undergraduate understandable expect 'sex' in an official document to mean 'sex'.

to be honest I do too.

I fail to see why the state should or needs to keep a record of an individual's 'gender identity', which is effectively what this law allows to be recorded on birth certificates.

Indeed I strenuously object to the very implication that I have a 'gender identity'. It's an incredibly sexist concept.

that is just one of the reasons why the GRA should absolutely be repealed.

Once, trying to get a visa for India in Sri Lanka, I had enormous problems because one set of authorities insisted on the u by itself, and the other on a ue. They almost came to blows.

Why not just use the u by itself? Because like that makes a most ridiculous English word.

I could imagine that persons with passports saying they were female, but having an extremely male appearance, would run into difficulties in countries like the Emirates, India, Pakistan, etc. There are different queues for security there. Women go into a cubicle at security and are searched by other women. I think there's be a huge hullaballoo if a 6foot person with a beard and broad shoulders turned up with a "female passport".

My niece has a passport showing her sex as male. If you saw her she's obviously a woman.

Do people ever come up against problems when they show their passports when travelling? I spell my middle name by rearranging one letter - I've always done it since childhood as it actually gives the word a meaning that I liked. When travelling in Thailand I had written my name the usual way on some documentation but it differed from the official spelling on my passport. A gun welding guard accosted me to know why I hadn't written my name correctly.

Very timely bump for this topic.

Interesting thread - i would like to read up on this.

Informative discussion. Definitely a topic worth discussing.

MoleSmokes, that's great then and I hope Keira is able to do this in the future.

Sorry, not yet had time to read the full thread but commenting to bookmark for later.

68 of us met on 24th June via Zoom to discuss reform/repeal. Sadly, Medium have taken down my summary of discussions but there is an archive link here if you are interested.
archive.is/SKmQC

We hope to meet again in July and set out some concrete steps for action. There was a lot of support in the group for repeal but also recognition that it is probably not achievable in light of ECHR rulings - for what it's worth I think Maya's solution is elegant and achievable.

MujeresLibres - "Another thing I meant to bring up is that there is currently no way to 'divorce' the GRC, no back-out for detransitioners. Keira Bell has highlighted some of the difficulties this posed to her."

I don't understand why this is a problem.

The GRA provides for correction of "errors" in c 7, Section 6:

6 Errors

(1) Where a gender recognition certificate has been issued to a person, the person or the Secretary of State may make an application for—

(a) an interim gender recognition certificate, on the ground that a full gender recognition certificate has incorrectly been issued instead of an interim certificate;

(b) a full gender recognition certificate, on the ground that an interim gender recognition certificate has incorrectly been issued instead of a full certificate; or

(c) a corrected certificate, on the ground that the certificate which has been issued contains an error.

(2) If the certificate was issued by a court the application is to be determined by the court but in any other case it is to be determined by a Gender Recognition Panel.

(3) The court or Panel—

(a) must grant the application if satisfied that the ground on which the application is made is correct, and

(b) otherwise must reject it.

(4 )If the court or Panel grants the application it must issue a correct, or a corrected, gender recognition certificate to the applicant.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/6

The wording does not stipulate that the error must have existed at the time the GRC was issued, just that it "contains an error", ie. at present.

It is obvious from the minutes of the Gender Recognition Panel User Group (thank you MForstater!) that Panels and GRP Admin are incredibly supportive and go out of their way to accommodate applicants:

medium.com/@MForstater/long-slow-demeaning-intrusive-and-distressing-or-swift-professional-and-efficient-e100f2fb41f8

Is there any reason to suppose that GRPs would not be equally helpful to detransitioners?

Any plan to repeal the GRA needs to include provision for detransitioners to revert to their original birth certificates. The GRA allows for a court to issue a "corrected or correct" GRC if the original GRC was issued by a court. Perhaps the simplest way around it would be to enable courts to issue "corrected or correct" GRCs to any detransitioner?

It would, but good luck getting TRAs to accept it.

I appreciate thats not want some TRAs want but it might be practical solution

Because that's not what they want.

Why don’t trans women get legal recognition as being trans women and trans men get legal recognition as being trans men? Then we all know where we are, trans women can then easily be excluded from single sex provision for women. Trans men are not sent to mens prisons etc etc.

It'd be interesting to hear Mrs Goodwin's story if she's still alive.

Repeal the GRA and protect the transwidows and their children, not the men with fetishes.

This ^^

The GRA has impacted so many aspects of Safeguarding frameworks.
Safeguarding is not limited to policies & protocols created by organisations either in scope or location.
Safeguarding is the responsibility that every adult has to protect children and Vulnerable Adults.

Goodwin v. THE UNITED KINGDOM
Judgement STRASBOURG
11 July 2002

(extract)
"THE FACTS

I. THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CASE

12. The applicant is a United Kingdom citizen born in 1937 and is a post-operative male to female transsexual.

13. The applicant had a tendency to dress as a woman from early childhood and underwent aversion therapy in 1963-64. In the mid-1960s, she was diagnosed as a transsexual. Though she married a woman and they had four children, her conviction was that her “brain sex” did not fit her body. From that time until 1984 she dressed as a man for work but as a woman in her free time. In January 1985, the applicant began treatment in earnest, attending appointments once every three months at the Gender Identity Clinic at the Charing Cross Hospital, which included regular consultations with a psychiatrist as well as on occasion a psychologist. She was prescribed hormone therapy, began attending grooming classes and voice training. Since this time, she has lived fully as a woman. In October 1986, she underwent surgery to shorten her vocal chords. In August 1987, she was accepted on the waiting list for gender re-assignment surgery. In 1990, she underwent gender re-assignment surgery at a National Health Service hospital. Her treatment and surgery was provided for and paid for by the National Health Service.

14. The applicant divorced from her former wife on a date unspecified but continued to enjoy the love and support of her children." (continues)
    www.bailii.org/eu/cases/ECHR/2002/588.html

Transwomen politely told to try somewhere else

Because that always works, doesn't it?

How many times have you been told to "try somewhere else"? And yet here you are marking your spot, speaking over women and trying to dictate feminism to us.

Repeal the GRA and protect the transwidows and their children, not the men with fetishes.

Ralph Lucas is a Conservative back bencher in The House of Lords.
May 5th 2020 he published clarification he had received from the government of the definition used for man and woman. This is based in Equality Act 2010
twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1257642470692868097

Lord Lucas wrote,

"Definitions. The government has helpfully pointed out the definitions that they use

"Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'

"Woman": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A female of any age'"

It may be useful in many circumstances to apply such definitions (respectfully) in order to make the sense and implications clearer. This is particularly relevant in circumstances which concern the Safeguarding of children or Vulnerable Adults.

As "Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'" therefore surely a male of any age may thus, and should for clarity, be described as a man?

I would prefer that people were allowed to have a passport without sex shown on it than the govt issue official docs which show the wrong sex.

In order to re-establish effective sex-based Safeguarding then relevent official documents should indicate sex accurately. Ommitting significant information (sex & DOB) is not effective Safeguarding.

These are some of the men (male of any age as per UK government useage & Equality Act) who are currently able to obtain female sex passports.

These are are some of the 'transwomen/ transsexuals' whose privacy we are being asked to prioritise.

'These are not our crimes' is a video that showcases a great piece of research by Kate Coleman, visually. It details crimes committed by men that have been recorded as crimes committed by women, and reported as such in the media.

Add a "gender" box to all the databases. Sex + gender = gender identity. Done.

No. I am not defined by other people's stereotypes.

My niece has a passport showing her sex as male. If you saw her she's obviously a woman.

Add a "gender" box to all the databases. Sex + gender = gender identity. Done.

No.... Definitely not. This institutionalises the idea that women are "cis" and share a characteristic with transwomen. If you have a separate gender marker then they will start using this.

People can have a traditionally female name, a feminine appearance in their picture and be called Miss/Mrs/Ms. But not "gender"

Not everyone has a passport

Yes, so having a passport with your sex on it is not obligatory (many people don't have one at all) and currently having your sex accurately on your passport is not obligatory (people are allowed to change it). I would prefer that people were allowed to have a passport without sex shown on it than the govt issue official docs which show the wrong sex.

Because it's not sufficiently validating.

Men want access to our spaces with women in them.

Again the third space. Why are they not campaigning for a third space?

Add a "gender" box to all the databases. Sex + gender = gender identity. Done.