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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TRA friend and BLM

246 replies

maudavery · 16/06/2020 05:55

I have a very woke friend, she has always been very outspoken on the trans issue but on social media she is surprisingly quiet at the minute, perhaps because JKR has made such brilliant points that it is difficult to argue against. So instead she has been posting a lot about BLM, trying to “educate” her white friends (she is white) about racism and recommend lots of reading. It is normal during this reading to feel defensive and uncomfortable she says. She invites us to DM her so that we can talk about these feelings. She doesn’t intend to sounds preachy and self righteous. She has then listed about 50 forms of covert white supremacy. Some of them I am aware of eg white hero complex, after the Stacey Dooley affair, (but then I wonder, is my friend not demonstrating this herself in her incessant drive to educate others about racism on behalf of people of a different race?)

I always thought not being racist was fairly straightforward- judge people by the content of the character, not the colour of their skin. But apparently this is no longer the case. I need to educate myself (I read very widely and have always read a lot of books by BAME authors, but she is recommending non fiction on the issue of race itself). I’m struggling with it to be honest. “White silence” is a covert act of white supremacy but then because there are seemingly an infinite amount of ways I can be covertly racist, no wonder people are silent because there are so many Microaggressions and covert forms of racism that to say anything at all is risky. (Eg it is racist to tell a black person they are “articulate”) But silence is violence. I just think the whole thing is authoritarian and intolerant the same way that “transwomen are women” is. And if I were to come out as GC on social media, which I have not been brave enough to do yet, then she would dismiss me as a terf and ergo because I don’t sign up to the package deal of the extreme left, I’m probably racist too.

For the record, I work at an outstanding inner city school with a high amount of BAME students. Day in and day out For the last 5 years I have built up relationships with kids of all backgrounds and led my department so that the students achieve excellent academic outcomes. I have diversified the curriculum, but I have also tried to change the curriculum to ensure it is academically challenging and gives our students the “cultural capital” that their more advantaged peers take for granted. I think this is a more meaningful demonstration of my own antiracism than posting a black square on my Instagram, but the former is me being a “white saviour” while the latter is “violence” through silence.

I think black lives matter, I understand why “all lives matter” is wrong, but at the same time, BLM as a political movement is something I cannot support - it’s aims are the end of the nuclear family, the defunding of the police and the overthrowing of capitalism. I also think the conflation of race with certain political beliefs is problematic in itself - a point Priti Patel made well I thought the other day - (although I am not a fan of hers AT ALL) but she seems to have shut down for not being the right kind of race or not having had the right experienced racism - which is surely racist in itself? I was horrified and sickened by the murder of George Floyd. I do not feel personally responsibility or guilt for it though which apparently makes me a racist monster.

I’m wondering if i should engage in a dialogue with my friend about this as she has invited this but wonder if it wouldn’t end well.

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FantaOra · 18/06/2020 13:02

unherd.com/2020/06/minority-women-can-think-for-themselves/

This is a good piece.

I agree with Womaninboots.

I am also perplexed at the message given that it's racist to expect black people to explain racism...fortunately many do anyway.

twoHopes · 18/06/2020 12:20

@WomaninBoots yes I'm with you - especially on changing the way we teach British history. I'd also love to change the way we talk about Africa in schools (and in the media) as all I ever see is poverty/riots/civil war or safaris. Yes let's talk about the awful damage colonialism has done but let's also talk about some of the brilliant art/literature/innovations coming out of Africa in the 21st century so it's not just a tale of woe and victimhood.

WomaninBoots · 18/06/2020 12:02

FWIW I am 100% on board with the drive to change how ws teach British history in schools. I think that is an awesome, practical fall out from all this.

WomaninBoots · 18/06/2020 12:01

I like how "women" are slotted into the list in the screenshot above... like "we best mention them I suppose" "since we'll need someone to make the sandwiches"

twoHopes I'm glad someone understood my ramble re. academic language! I think it's the reason you get people asking " wgat can I do?" a lot... or at least it's linked. People are looking for practical stuff to do and getting told a load of words thet don't understand in response. It causes frustration. Then thet get told their frustration is white fragility... it doesn't really move anything forwards in a practical sense in my view!

BovaryX · 18/06/2020 11:19

@TheRealMcKenna

BovaryX I agree. I keep hearing that ‘people’ (meaning us uneducated plebs) aren’t grasping what ‘defund the police’ actually means (despite the fact it clearly states ‘abolish’ on the UK website). There is a serious issue with branding going on here.

Why would any organisation in their right minds set out a group of aims that then needed to be explained because they didn’t mean what they said they did? It makes no sense.

TheRealMcKenna

Nope. It doesn't make sense. But words matter. And dismantle capitalism is a clear, political statement, indicating a specific position on the political spectrum. Not remotely ambiguous. As for 'defund the police?' I wonder how that will play if it's associated with the Joe Biden in November?

TheRealMcKenna · 18/06/2020 10:58

BovaryX I agree. I keep hearing that ‘people’ (meaning us uneducated plebs) aren’t grasping what ‘defund the police’ actually means (despite the fact it clearly states ‘abolish’ on the UK website). There is a serious issue with branding going on here.

Why would any organisation in their right minds set out a group of aims that then needed to be explained because they didn’t mean what they said they did? It makes no sense.

BovaryX · 18/06/2020 08:58

@TheRealMcKenna

That is the stated aim of one of the many dozens of organisations around the world who are using the global slogan Black Lives Matter.

This is the stated aim of the original BLM organisation. You can hardly blame anyone for thinking that’s what the movement as a whole stands for when it’s so clearly stated on the organisation’s website.

One of the stated aims on the funding website of its UK branch is to dismantle capitalism. If its stated aims are not its stated aims, why are they there? Hmm
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/06/2020 23:21

But tbh I prickle at being at being told to “educate” myself, or interrogate my own prejudice, or confess my wrongthink, or whatever. It does feel a bit Communist China/Khmer Rouge-y.

Honestly I think this is just a shitty way to communicate, and lots of different people are doing it. We could dissect where it originally came from in terms of which theorists and so on, but the impact of it on public discourse has clearly been a negative one, and I think it serves to undermine any efforts to actually "educate" more than it does to prop them up.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 17/06/2020 22:48

It’s not us that are doing the conflating! I take it you haven’t actually looked the BLM website? It’s absolutely riddled with PoMo Queer Theory.

blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

TRA friend and BLM
TRA friend and BLM
TRA friend and BLM
maudavery · 17/06/2020 21:40

I’m very, very concerned at the number of threads lately trying to conflate the TRA movement with anti-racism, with the agenda to discredit anti-racism.

I think the conflation comes from the fact that SOME TRAs and SOME BLM supporters have extreme left, authoritarian views and the discourse in both areas is increasingly intolerant and fraught.

no one has said that anti-racism is bad.

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HarryHarry · 17/06/2020 21:35

@TheEmpressMatilda If that was aimed at me that’s not what I was trying to say. I feel that it’s very difficult to say anything at the moment without people pouncing on it and trying to argue with what they think I’ve said rather than what I actually said. I really don’t have the time or energy or the inclination to explain myself to the professionally offended and outraged. I’m not going to be dragged into a moral purity spiral to see which of us is most woke.

TheRealMcKenna · 17/06/2020 21:35

That is the stated aim of one of the many dozens of organisations around the world who are using the global slogan Black Lives Matter.

This is the stated aim of the original BLM organisation. You can hardly blame anyone for thinking that’s what the movement as a whole stands for when it’s so clearly stated on the organisation’s website.

TRA friend and BLM
twoHopes · 17/06/2020 21:32

@HarryHarry my partner is mixed race and I had a really interesting chat with him about all this today. I won't be able to sum it all up here but essentially he was agreeing with a PP about how it's important that we differentiate between academic (meta) conversations about race versus how we identify and tackle prejudice which is often very context specific. In short - he thinks there's far too much focus on the academic race stuff which is a distraction from the conversation we should be having - i.e. where does prejudice/inequality exist and what can we do about it?

He's also keenly aware of the fact that there are certain types of prejudice that will be experienced by people with darker skin (e.g. his mum) that he won't experience but that doesn't make him somehow guilty or "white privileged".

He also had a bit of a rant about rich celebrities in their mansions preaching to us all about equality Wink

HarryHarry · 17/06/2020 21:31

Yes I meant the “official” BLM website.

TheEmpressMatilda · 17/06/2020 21:22

BLM’s stated beliefs and aims, eg “dismantling cis privilege”.

That is not a “stated aim” of BLM.

That is the stated aim of one of the many dozens of organisations around the world who are using the global slogan Black Lives Matter.

TheEmpressMatilda · 17/06/2020 21:20

I’m very, very concerned at the number of threads lately trying to conflate the TRA movement with anti-racism, with the agenda to discredit anti-racism.

HarryHarry · 17/06/2020 21:09

Just a question - where does everybody think mixed race people fit into all of this? I feel a bit weird about the idea that white people need to take responsibility for things they didn’t do but have indirectly benefitted from because the other half of me is not white. But tbh I prickle at being at being told to “educate” myself, or interrogate my own prejudice, or confess my wrongthink, or whatever. It does feel a bit Communist China/Khmer Rouge-y.

Ultimately I think the best the individual can do to change things is to be a good person, challenging racism whenever you encounter it and calling on our governments to do the same. All the other stuff - preaching to your friends on social media - is really just (sorry I hate this word) virtue-signalling and doesn’t affect any real, lasting change.

HarryHarry · 17/06/2020 20:43

I have a friend like this and I have to say I feel a bit weird about being lectured by her about race. She is white, I am mixed. I feel like really don’t need things explained to me!

I should also say that I don’t agree with all of BLM’s stated beliefs and aims, eg “dismantling cis privilege”. (I don’t think of myself as “cis” nor do I think it is a “privilege”).

SerenityNowwwww · 17/06/2020 20:20

Oh it’s a beautiful book. She was a very educated and cultured lady (a widow by the time it really kicked off) and her life was just ripped apart - very very sad story of how she and her daughter were treated. She died about ten years ago in Washington.

MsSafina · 17/06/2020 19:54

@SerenityNowwwww.
Thanks. I will definitely check that out. I have a Chinese friend who was sent to a camp in the seventies for the crime of being an artist. I must say, the present climate chimes with her experiences. People are not sent to actual camps but subject to the psychological equivalent for Wrong Thought - doxing, public shaming, forced to make abject apologies and the loss of jobs and income. To the OP, I would tread very carefully with this FB "friend" in case she denounces you.

maudavery · 17/06/2020 18:22

Katherine Birbalsingh on this today

unherd.com/2020/06/minority-women-can-think-for-themselves/

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andyoldlabour · 17/06/2020 15:58

If we look at racism in the World today, some of it is very distinctive and doesn't just affect black people. Take for instance the cases of racism towards Maoris and Aborigines by the people who have settled in Australia and New Zealand. Then there is the racism in the Middle East/Gulf states, where they use slave labour largely from South Eastern Asia. We only have to look at refugee camps in Syria and closer to home in Italy and France to realise the tensions and violence between people from the Middle East (Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran) and other refugees/migrants from Sub-Saharan Africa.
The hatred of Jewish people is a racist issue and has been for centuries. The expulsion of Asian people from Uganda by Idi Amin was definitely racist. Finally, the targeting of young, white girls by grooming gangs, composed of men from one particular country was racist, the comments of the perpetrators in subsequent trials proved that.

Goosefoot · 17/06/2020 15:33

What is weird though is there is certainly truth to the statement that the collective experience of one BAME community is not the same as another, and it affects those communities differently.

That's part of the problem with the acronyms, or even the concept of "black" because you are not talking about one group of people.

And yet it somehow turns around so that in asserting that there is just another inappropriate generalisation being made, another warped lens being applied.

I am coming to the conclusion that the problem is that the concepts, even the concept of racism in many cases, are simply not fine enough tools to do the job we are asking of them. They reduce experiences and they reduce patterns into something too simplistic to be useful.

BovaryX · 17/06/2020 14:59

@andyoldlabour

BovaryX

I think your post really highlights the fact that we seem to have some sort of league table for the most oppressed people - who are obviously not WHITE.
Priti Patel is being criticised because on the "Ethnic Pantone" chart, she is clearly not dark skinned enough to be black, so therefore her racist experiences do not count.
This whole thing has degenerated into a - "You can never be as oppressed as me" scenario, with one person saying that every white person should look at themselves three times in a mirror each morning.
I don't do collective guilt or collective punishment.
Everyone should be judged individually.

andy

I agree. It's just dire. I have seen some appalling racism on this forum in the last week. But apparently it's okay because its target is Priti Patel. Racism is another word which has been redefined by the Newspeak dictionary. It can't apply to Conservatives at all.

andyoldlabour · 17/06/2020 14:26

BovaryX

I think your post really highlights the fact that we seem to have some sort of league table for the most oppressed people - who are obviously not WHITE.
Priti Patel is being criticised because on the "Ethnic Pantone" chart, she is clearly not dark skinned enough to be black, so therefore her racist experiences do not count.
This whole thing has degenerated into a - "You can never be as oppressed as me" scenario, with one person saying that every white person should look at themselves three times in a mirror each morning.
I don't do collective guilt or collective punishment.
Everyone should be judged individually.

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