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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SCOTUS ruling on LBGT rights

85 replies

ProfessorSlocombe · 15/06/2020 21:03

www.nytimes.com/2020/06/15/us/gay-transgender-workers-supreme-court.html

The Supreme Court ruled Monday that a landmark civil rights law protects gay and transgender workers from workplace discrimination, handing the movement for L.G.B.T. equality a stunning victory.

“An employer who fires an individual merely for being gay or transgender defies the law,” Justice Neil M. Gorsuch wrote for the majority in the 6-to-3 ruling.

OP posts:
howonearthdidwegethere · 16/06/2020 21:15

I'm still confused about why WoLF thinks this is a bad judgement and why they supported the funeral home.

I had a look and found their post about the protest from last year. It also doubles up as a barbed attack on Ruth Serwotka at WPUK.

Is WoLF supposed to be a feminist outfit? This feels like a judgement feminists should be pleased about.

Maybe I'm missing something...

OvaHere · 16/06/2020 17:54

This seems like a good ruling and one that somewhat resembles provisions in our own Equality Act.

DonkeySkin · 16/06/2020 17:54

'Sex identified at birth' is better than 'sex assigned at birth', for sure.

It is a relief that the opinion does not use the 'assigned' terminology once - especially since the ACLU lawyers used it constantly in their arguments. That the court has declined to echo this language is significant.

I still think 'sex identified at birth' is dangerous, because the implication, even if unintended, is that the person's sex might be different now (and again, if the intent is to underscore that sex is biological and immutable, why not just use 'sex'?) . The way this concept slippage works is made clear in context, for instance, p. 19 of the majority opinion:

By discriminating against transgender persons, the employer unavoidably discriminates against persons with one sex identified at birth and another today.

See how the adoption of gender identity terminology causes incoherent thinking, and thus, the ruling ends up reifying the notion of 'sex change', even though this is probably not the justices' intention, given that they explicitly define sex as relating to male and female biology?

Griefmonster · 16/06/2020 17:18

@Donkeyskin - I'm not sure I agree that the words "sex as identified at birth" is as slippery or unconscious wording as you set out here. I can imagine it is very well chosen. They are not unawa of the weight of every word of the ruling for current observers and for the rest of time. And to me confirms the biological basis of sex. The sex was not just assigned. It was identified.

Is there a reason why it seems more vague to you? Perhaps precedent where that language has been used to conflate gender and sex? I'm aware of "assigned at birth" being contentious (and I can see why). But identified at birth seems to strengthen rather than weaken the point to me.

DonkeySkin · 16/06/2020 16:29

Lawyer W. Burlette Carter, who has been following this case closely and filed two amicus briefs on it, has an excellent thread on the ruling here:

twitter.com/wddaughter/status/1272553010917507075

She thinks it is a good outcome that protects the employment rights of gay and trans-identified people without redefining sex. She mentions that in one of her briefs:

I asked the court to rely upon a decision, the Oncale case, to find that discrimination based on the presentation of Gender is banned under Title VII without overturning distinctions between biological sex and gender identity.

And on a straightforward reading of the majority opinion (by Justice Gorsuch), the court seems to have ruled along those lines in the case of Stephens, i.e., that Stephens was fired for presenting in a feminine manner, when a female employee wouldn't have been, hence, discrimination on the basis of sex.

The worry, for me, is the slippery nature of the concept of 'gender identity'; most crucially, the way it colonises the language of sex and thus transforms it. Since 'gender identity' uses the language of sex to conceptualise itself, merely referring to it is enough to subtly shift the meaning of sex from a physical locus to a psychological state.

We can see this in the way the Gorsuch refers to Stephens' 'sex identified at birth' - the last three, unnecessary words are almost certainly entirely new language for the court (I bet every other case involving sex discrimination simply referred to 'sex'), and they destabilise the truth of sex as something bodily and immutable.

By using this language (probably entirely unconsciously) the court has incorporated the precepts of gender identity theory into its ruling, even though it is careful to clarify that sex (at least in respect to title VII) refers to 'the biological distinctions between male and female'.

In her thread, Carter also discusses whether the court's reasoning in this case, if extended beyond employment, could be used to outlaw single-sex provision in other areas like homeless shelters and sports:

No doubt, some judges will decide the case means they can dismiss biology even though the M said it is not doing that. But my guess is that the court is headed toward narrowing the biology exception--but keeping it.

I'm not quite sure what she means by 'narrowing the biology exception - but keeping it'. But given that the overwhelming trend in the courts, the law and society has been to legally erase the significance of the sexed body altogether, I am fearful. And indeed Justice Alito, in his dissenting opinion, says the reasoning in this case could be used to effectively overturn Title IX and outlaw all single-sex provision:

The effect of the Court’s reasoning may be to force young women to compete against students who have a very significant biological advantage, including students who have the size and strength of a male but identify as female and students who are taking male hormones in order to transition from female to male.

Notice again how Alito incorporates the falsehoods of gender identity theory into his language even as he apparently rejects its logic: he refers to people who 'identify as female' or who 'transition from female to male'.

It's really incredible the way the language of 'gender identity' manages to scramble people's minds, rendering clear thinking on this subject impossible. Even Supreme Court justices - people whose professional lives have been dedicated to scrutinising arguments for logic, via the careful parsing of language - end up saying outright absurd things like 'transition from male to female', in direct contradiction to their own definition of those terms, without even realising what they are doing.

Full ruling with dissenting opinions here:

www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/17-1618_hfci.pdf

OneEpisode · 16/06/2020 09:12

Someone sensible has to read the actual blinking judgement. C Clymer has been tweeting to make sure people realise it is a victory for gender identity as well as sexuality. But it depends if gender identity was actually a reason for the decision. The press is all about “if it was Ok for a female it should be ok for a male” so different dress codes can’t be enforced at threat of dismissal.

PlonitbatPlonit · 16/06/2020 09:10

Title VII is the statute covering employment.

BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted · 16/06/2020 09:03

Yes, they are. They have filed an amicus brief in the case of the funeral home and the (now dead) trans employee who they fired. But I think that case was filed under Title XIX. Not sure as not American

howonearthdidwegethere · 16/06/2020 08:54

WoLF seem to have got this wrong: www.facebook.com/womensliberationfront/posts/3072538632840641?hc_location=ufi

Are they the group that protested outside the Court last year when the case was being heard?

happydappy2 · 16/06/2020 08:52

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TehBewilderness · 15/06/2020 23:35

@VickyEadieofThigh

If it protects people from discrimination it sounds like a good thing (fence sitting because I don't fully know the legal position).
Federal law never actually protects you. It just gives you recourse when the discrimination happens. The male female wage discrimination laws are over 50 years old but the wage gap persists. Most states already had anti discrimination laws on the basis of sexual orientation. Bet you can guess which ones didn't.
PlonitbatPlonit · 15/06/2020 23:03

Elizabeth Hungerford wrote an explainer for Woman's Place on the Stephens v. Harris case womansplaceuk.org/2019/10/19/sex-and-gender-the-law-in-the-usa/

She ended it by saying "I believe that SCOTUS can and should rule without regard to “transgender status” and in favor of Stephens on the basis of his gender non-conformity and a prohibition against sex-based stereotyping. I hope for something roughly as follows: employment decisions made on the basis of the employer’s sex stereotyping expectation or the employee’s non-conformity to those sex-based expectations is unlawful under Title VII."

The outcome does seem to be pretty close to that.

7Days · 15/06/2020 23:03

That's great for LGBT people in the US.

It's so backwards in many ways.

lionheart · 15/06/2020 22:59

That's what I was wondering, FloralBunting.

RuffleCrow · 15/06/2020 22:44

Oh, and sport, obviously!

RuffleCrow · 15/06/2020 22:43

sounds good as long as care agencies are still able to specify female staff, same for prisons etc and anywhere intimate care may be required. Basically they need the same exemptions we have.

SciFiScream · 15/06/2020 22:39

This is excellent news. No one should be fired from a job due to their sexual orientation or how they present their identity. Men should be able to wear make up, skirts, jewellery etc whether they are trans or not.

As long as the act does not conflate sex and gender this is good news!

Every person deserves dignity, the chance to earn a living, healthcare, education etc etc.

FloralBunting · 15/06/2020 22:32

On the face of it, brilliant.

The devil is very much in the detail as I understand it. Friends are telling me this is essentially swapping out the definition of 'sex' with 'gender identity'. So yes, good to have employment protections. But the ruling will have knock on effects in key women's rights battles in the US, including, I think,the young women fighting for their sporting access.

Goosefoot · 15/06/2020 22:30

The uS is really coming from a different thought process. In many states employers can fire someone for any reason they like, apart from these kinds of special protections. I'm not convinced that isn't as bad TBH.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 15/06/2020 22:25

It's even weirder in that so much varies from state to state, so in some places you can fire someone for reasons that you'd never get away with in another place.

lionheart · 15/06/2020 22:21

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53055632

CaraDune · 15/06/2020 22:19

Good for Neil Gorsuch. Four words I never thought I'd see on FWR. (Hobby Lobby, anyone?) But in this instance, yes, he did make the right call.

VickyEadieofThigh · 15/06/2020 22:14

If it protects people from discrimination it sounds like a good thing (fence sitting because I don't fully know the legal position).

IrenetheQuaint · 15/06/2020 22:11

This is great news. We should all support gay and trans people's right not to be discriminated against at work. Good for Neil Gorsuch.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 15/06/2020 22:06

Good news for the US, then. Can't believe this wasn't already law.

I agree, if there wasn't this protection no wonder things are different over there.

Divided by a common language, and the presumption that there are no cultural differences, I think.