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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour 'stands back' from transgender war

218 replies

BovaryX · 15/06/2020 08:45

I haven't seen this already posted, apologies if it has been. The Times reports that Labour is 'standing back' from the transgender issue in recognition of the fact its threats to expel members with 'transphobic' views during the last election contributed to a collapse of Labour support in the 'Red Wall'. Meanwhile, an Amnesty International spokeswoman claims that the Conservative proposals amount to a 'hostile environment' for trans people in the UK.

^any such proposals would cause a headache for Sir Keir Starmer after disputes over the intersection of trans rights with feminism overshadowed the Labour leadership election. Sir Keir was the only candidate not to sign a pledge calling on the party to expel members with “transphobic” views. He instead tried to take the heat out of the issue.Last week JK Rowling was criticised by the stars of the Harry Potter films after she used her experience of domestic violence to express concerns about female-only spaces and warn against attempts to “erode ‘woman’ as a political and biological class”.
Labour has committed itself to reform of the Gender Recognition Act and David Lammy, the shadow justice secretary, said: “There’s now a change of view that people ought to be able to self-identify and not over-medicalise.” But he declined to go further, telling the BBC: “We would have to look at the legislation when it comes forward in detail^

OP posts:
OvaHere · 16/06/2020 18:37

I'm not sure. I doubt he was referring to the GRA though.

Apileofballyhoo · 16/06/2020 18:35

mobile.twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1272861895251419136

Sorry I can't do screen shots on the phone I'm on because the button is broken, but Keir S called the food for children in the summer holidays thing "another welcome u-turn from Boris J". What was the first "welcome u-turn"?

Text of his tweet below.

This is another welcome u-turn from Boris Johnson.

The thought of 1.3 million children going hungry this summer was unimaginable.

Well done to
@MarcusRashford
and many others who spoke out so powerfully about this issue.

FantaOra · 15/06/2020 23:21

I will always remember Sheila Jeffrey's saying this will never end, we have to stand up against the men that want to be us forever.

JoysOfString · 15/06/2020 20:19

Call me cynical, but who in their right mind at any time (1974, 2004, or 2024) could ever think it would be in any way sensible to allow male prisoners to apply to be recognised as female and thus require new prison arrangements (amongst women)? It truly boggles the mind.

If I'd had that clearly pointed out to me, I'd have objected but I think in 2004 I just had this general deluded view, if I gave it much thought at all that transsexuals (as I thought of them) had some respect for the fact that they weren't 100% women - kind of as if all of them were basically like Debbie Hayton.

I agree, respect to those who had a clearer view.

dayoftheclownfish · 15/06/2020 20:06

If you saw the issues in 2004, then kudos to you. The trans movement of today is vastly more powerful, so speaking up then would have incurred fewer costs. I wonder what the debate within Labour at the time was like. Who would have been the prominent female politicians?

Aesopfable · 15/06/2020 19:56

To be fair to Lammy, not many people could have foreseen in 2004 that the trans movement would emerge in the way that it has and become part of progressive orthodoxy

I remember sitting on my bed, old wall paper in our bedroom, chatting to DH when they mentioned the GRA 2004 on the radio and the feeling of dread and outrage that came over me. DH got a long rant about lies and falsehoods and what does this mean for women. Even then I remember feeling it had been sneaked in. I guess writing to my MP at that point would have been too late anyway.

forsucksfake · 15/06/2020 19:53

Call me cynical, but who in their right mind at any time (1974, 2004, or 2024) could ever think it would be in any way sensible to allow male prisoners to apply to be recognised as female and thus require new prison arrangements (amongst women)? It truly boggles the mind.

MaMaLa321 · 15/06/2020 19:51

ask Angela Rayner. She hasn't suffered (unfortunately)

JoysOfString · 15/06/2020 19:43

I agree not having a clearly thought out GC viewpoint in 2004 is understandable - I didn't because I only perceived the issue as being a tiny number of transsexual people.

Being peaked is a thing and I think it's gathering pace now. The question is what happens when you're an MP who's previously gone full kool-aid.

dayoftheclownfish · 15/06/2020 19:39

To be fair to Lammy, not many people could have foreseen in 2004 that the trans movement would emerge in the way that it has and become part of progressive orthodoxy.

Back in the day, many people on the left very understandably thought that this was the nichest of niche issues, very untrendy and that trans people were poor souls, to be pitied for their plight.

I can almost forgive Lammy for 2004 but not for 2018-2020. We can’t trust Labour.

ThePurported · 15/06/2020 19:32

Now? Now we have David Lammy carefully saying, 'We'll need to look closely at the legislation.'

The same David Lammy who argued in 2004 in favour of gender recognition

Yeah, those pesky Hansard records. Pretty much all of the potential issues which were raised in 2004 and brushed aside as It Will Never Happen have come to pass.

karensgetshitdone · 15/06/2020 18:59

That's quite a find, ForFucksSake.

🤦‍♀️

I read Jane Clare Jones 'Annals of the TERF Wars' on Twitter today & just marvelled at it all.

It's just ... extraordinary.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 15/06/2020 18:53

Maybe we can rename him David "Not Known For His Ability to Extrapolate The Potential Results Of His Decisions With Any Great Accuracy" Lammy.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 15/06/2020 18:51

Yeah, I'd agree that it's not nothing, it's just not nearly enough. Labour want the voters who've abandoned them back? Work for it.

forsucksfake · 15/06/2020 18:51

Now? Now we have David Lammy carefully saying, 'We'll need to look closely at the legislation.'

The same David Lammy who argued in 2004 in favour of gender recognition:

Prisoners can apply and that person will be subject to prison arrangements for their new acquired gender. We are talking about a very small group of people and the hon. Gentleman knows that that situation would arise in limited circumstances.

Now 1 in 50 male prisoners identifies as a woman.

karensgetshitdone · 15/06/2020 18:43

I think OJ is moving in to colonise Black Lives Matter. 🤦‍♀️

Can't say how grim I think that is - but there you go: culture war grifters gonna grift.

Watched him at work having a go at Jess Phillips on Twitter for not being incendiary enough and thought, 'Oh. That's how you're going to keep your income stream ...'

Anyway, I think things have already shifted a bit in Labour.

7 months ago, following the Times story, we'd have had a stream of Labour-ish types on television, explaining that sex is assigned at birth and furiously explaining that anyone who thought differently was part of the coloniser class and an oppressor.

And many people would have been boggling at what they were hearing, and others would be weeping.

Now? Now we have David Lammy carefully saying, 'We'll need to look closely at the legislation.'

No, it's not a win. Yes, we have a long way to go - and we might not get there. But it is a significant change.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 15/06/2020 18:37

Yeah, I'm kind of going "if I had children perhaps they might one day live to see a Labour Party that cares about class issues again".

FantaOra · 15/06/2020 18:35

Labour will still be squabbling over this at the next election.

RedDogsBeg · 15/06/2020 18:34

Thanks BovaryX, my thoughts exactly! I even used craven as wellGrin.

It's the thread about the Times front page re GRA reform if you care to look!

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 15/06/2020 18:32

I predict that little Owen will be out on his arse once Labour realizes that his smug wokester tone is part of what helped them lose an election.

(Granted this may take a while.)

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 15/06/2020 18:30

True, Tyro, but in terms of the "tranwomen are biologically female because sex don't real" stuff? Not a one, I'm willing to bet. Just a few older blokes going "if TWAW that means I'm not gay".

BovaryX · 15/06/2020 18:20

@RedDogsBeg

BovaryX

I've just used this comment from you on another thread, hope you don't mind:

MPs who are petrified of challenging a Twitter mob are unfit to represent anyone. They are unfit to be in any position of power.

RedDogsBeg

Sure, go ahead! I think this phenomenon of politicians quivering before an unelected mob on Twitter is not only craven, but undemocratic. Who elected Owen Jones et al to dictate policy to timorous politicos?

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TyroSaysMeow · 15/06/2020 18:07

I dunno, Kittens, I reckon there's a shitload of men that old who divide the world into real men and other, and are perfectly happy to label the latter category "women".

ThePurported · 15/06/2020 18:03

Who knows. I really rated Lisa Nandy and thought she had her head screwed on, and look what happened there...

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 15/06/2020 17:54

I don't think any men that old are real true believers, though there will be a few who'll claim to be because of, hmm, let's just say specialized sexual interests.