Peak TERF

do you know where to find stats on violence against women by men and violence against trans women/men by men? Or violence by women, for that matter

Here's an interesting experiment for everyone. Type into Google 'women killed 2020.' What do you notice about the results of this search?

I apologise, BobbieDraper, if that reads like an attack on you, or in any way personal. Not intended. I was just replying to points that I feel are important.

I should have said "TMATM" - wish there was an edit button.

@BobbieDraper given your work with women fleeing domestic violence, there is plenty of reading and research you might want to do regarding refuges for vulnerable women in Canada (for example) and here, rape crisis centres and prisons here in the U.K., bra fitting rooms/services in M&S (for example) and what has already happened and will continue to happen until this utter madness is ended once and for all.

As gender critical thinking is based on truth, logic and biology, I cannot really see anyone who is GC then reversing their thinking and introduce fantasy into real life situations.
I believe TWATW and TMAM, I do not think anyone can change sex (gender is a different matter) and that people are born male or female (with a tiny number of intersex conditions for the pedantic people).
As previous posters have stated, campaign for third spaces, but do not insist that you have a right to invade female spaces if you were born male. That IMHO goes against the equality act, but more importantly it goesw against moral behaviour which has been ingrained into us over a very long period of time.

Be very careful with ‘Be Nice.’

Very often it means ‘Know your space; Shut your mouth; Take what I give you and like it.’

@JellySlice

It's a debate I'm new too, and still trying to think through without harming any vulnerable group. I think I've explained that I'm still trying on this thread.

The more you read, the more you see that their cant be a compromise and trying to be "nice" is just going to end up with women being violated. But I'm new to this and I'm asking questions; I'm not trying to push my very unformed musings onto you.

We’ve been saying third spaces for years.

It doesn’t fulfil the true criteria.

but they do need a safe space of their own, why not do that

I thought we should be allies. But that doesnt appear to be the case. I just wanted to be education as to why

I think everyone I have discussed this with always says immediately third spaces.
Apparently third spaces are transphobic because they are women, and women together is the only way.
It's a circular argument that gets us nowhere.
If you want to campaign for third spaces be our guest. We cant make anyone use it even if it was provided, but crack on.

Nothing will change my mind about allowing pre-op trans women into female only spaces. However, I'm not longer sure about the blanket "no transwomen in female only spaces". Once they've had surgery...

I feel very uncomfortable at telling people that they can only earn something if they have had body modifications. That interferes with their bodily autonomy. It also implies that 'woman' is a club you can join. It is not. It is a state of being over which we have no control. We can't identify into or out of being women.

Transwomen who generally look feminine and dress like it wouldn't be safe in male spaces.

Why is male violence women's problem to solve?

But, above all, the TRA position is a faith-based ideology. "I believe, therefore you must, too." Would you accept Jews or Muslims saying you cannot celebrate Christmas? Or, you can celebrate Christmas, but only in a way that reflects their practices? Would you accept Sikhs banning your turkey and ham on Christmas Day? Would you accept Dawkins capturing the government and having laws passed forbidding you from practicing your faith? Imagine if saying "Inshallah" was considered hate-crime.

Outrageous and unbelievable in the 21st century. Yet this is what the TRAs want. They want a new theocracy, to turn freedom of thought and expression into blasphemy against their theology.

And this is why I will never be converted to their faith or ideology. They want to control and restrict people. I want to free people - to ensure that people are not boxed-in by prejudice or fear.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

Gosh, the more you look into this the more it really does have to be "sort your own shit out cause I'm done trying to help".

It's like it's going to be a war which wont end because one side has refused all attempts at compromise... and the world is going along with it because they want to be all fluffy and woke with the warm fuzzies.

I would use the term camp. There are definitely two distinct camps.

Also, have just noticed the term ‘cult’ used in the OP.

I reject that term, adhering firmly to biological fact and material reality is not a cultic belief.

(I know it was in quotes, but am addressing it anyway.)

never not be er*

Anything less than TWAW is 'transphobia'

Yes, I was told this too. I am accepting and kind and welcoming and would be er judge someone for their GI or discriminate against anyone. I don't hate or have a fear of trans people either.

So whilst most "-phobia" requires actual hate, fear or discrimination, transphobic can be simple disagreement. According to my friends.

A great thoughtful thread.

Having had a full and frank discussion with some libfem friends, the crux of the matter is my belief that biological sex is absolute and the sole criteria in order to be called "woman", including women with DSDs. To them "woman", it means bio or trans woman. Neither of us are changing our minds in a hurry.

I want them to have their own spaces. Not take ours. But that doesnt seem to be something that will be provided, and it doesnt sound like they will use them. I would have no trouble kicking a transwomen out of the women's toilets if there was a transwomen only safe space for them.

Surely that is one of the biggest issues - the TRA ideology states that trans women ARE women and therefore there can be no division, such as trans toilets, because that would constitute 'transphobia'. Even suggesting it is 'transphobia'. Anything less than TWAW is 'transphobia'.

"transwomen shouldn't be in womens spaces but they do need a safe space of their own, why not do that?".

That was more or less my position, but if you suggest it you will be told it’s akin to segregation and you are racist/colonialist and are invalidating transpeople and that’s literal violence.

So now I’ve moved onto ‘let them sort their own shit out because they won’t be happy until we have nothing left’.

*Your (excuse typos)

My argument would be if society wasn't so freaked out by feminine men, men in dresses and make up etc, these men wouldn't need therapy, and actually probably don't need therapy. You're parents and friends voicing that you wanting to wear lipstick and necklaces, or having private kinks, is riddiculous, makes you a freak, or worse it's a sign you need medical help, must be awful. I don't think anyone who doesn't conform to societies expectations is silly or riddiculous, but I think the tra "they were born in the wrong body, and must be fixed" arguments are. I was a goth and loved our local scene of all sorts of non conformist types, and the local gay bar and the atmosphere of "anything goes, no one is judging you".

Everyone should be allowed to be who they are, and dress and present how they want, without feeling the need to re-label themselves as women, take over womens spaces, or have surgery.

I want them to have their own spaces. Not take ours.

But that doesnt seem to be something that will be provided, and it doesnt sound like they will use them. I would have no trouble kicking a transwomen out of the women's toilets if there was a transwomen only safe space for them.

*intimidated

Yes, and lesbians (many times very young and very vulnerable), being threatened, intimated, bullied and harangued because they don’t want to have sex with a man who says his penis is a lady penis.