Peak TERF

Because my views are based on fact, which will never change. A man cannot become a woman. It is physically impossible. And we are living in a bizarre Orwellian society which wants us to acknowledge that they can. Truth, science, fact, biology - these are all under threat as long as this mindset continues.

The position TRAs are coming from is one of emotion and misogyny, the position politicians are coming from is populism and appeasement, the position of everyone else in society is probably quite indifferent.

I don't see how one can renounce fact in favour of these.

but if the TRA arguments are valid, as many in the mainstream and social media insist, then there must be arguments that would help you/us see "the light" and understand their POV.

I routinely look for the arguments from the 'other side' in the hope of understanding their logic. I'm always surprised how weak the arguments are, even from highly qualified people.

I think this is why it's so hard to find a compromise- there is very little substance at the heart of the Genderist philosophy. Those transsexuals who just want to be free from discrimination are happy to discuss the details of protection for women's rights, even if they don't agree, but Genderists can't negotiate on details because there are non.

If anyone fancies being peak-GCed I think this is the best argument I found:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=1pTPuoGjQsI

She almost gets it (which allows her to make better arguments than usual) but then retreats to the idea that 'Terfs are a hate group so it's ok to call them names'.

Dolls fgs. I had many dolls, none were requested all gifts that came with guilt for not wanting them or ever playing with them.

My big sister got dolls. My big brother got action figures. I got sylvanian families. Funnily enough, did not grow up to be a furry! They were quite useful for the whole compulsively-reenacting-trauma thing though.

Then I got a bit older, and occasionally there would be gifts of jewellery. Wtf am I supposed to do with that? I've never liked jewellery, unless it's permanently attached through an acquired hole.

• and apparently losing the ability to construct a sentence altogether today, apologies. in exactly the same place.

Jelly, and others, I think I'm on exactly the same place here.

There is nuance and ambivalence. These aren't easy, straightforward, simple arguments and that's why reducing them to TWAW and other pithy slogans has caused such huge problems. It's another reason I'm wary about getting into the discussion with people who have very little knowledge of the subject - it's such a huge time suck to carefully take apart each issue in detail, but that's what is needed.

my mind was made up by trans people not by gender critical women

Good point. Very accurate.

I came across trans people well before I ever dipped my toe into FWR. I didn't come across the trans ideology until after I had got to know a particular transwoman. I find it extremely difficult to reconcile trans activism with them and their behaviour. Not that it's anything I've ever discussed with them. This person very fragile, and I genuinely do not want to hurt them - or their family.

Yes that.
Dolls fgs. I had many dolls, none were requested all gifts that came with guilt for not wanting them or ever playing with them.

Or you had groups exclusively designed for the empowerment of young girls sharing videos of transgirls talking about how they always wanted a bra and always liked playing with dolls, so knew they were girls.

And then everyone wonders why there are suddenly so many girls disidentifying with being girls...

I feel invalidated to use trans terminology at not being able to name, own and discuss the parts related to female biology that I have struggled with. Puberty is awful. Body changes that are so visible and come with a change in how you are looked at and treated. Embedded menstruation shame. Hormonal mood swings that are either supposed to be ignored or used to vilify us. Pregnancy brought a new bunch of physical changes and post-birth changes - jeepers. All the new stuff. And then peri menopause which is a bit like going through puberty on steroids, it affects so much. Then post menopause.

We have had such a small window of being able to publicly discuss this stuff and the shift from conceal it, tainted dirty women is minute and only exists in pockets within countries.

It is essential to all women and girls that the idea that discussing and changing anything to do with the female reproductive system is somehow unseemly is condemned to the past. How are we supposed to do that if we can’t talk about it because now it is both unseemly and unkind?

Excellent post. It's not coincidental that so much of this has been a semantic battle. The use of that four letter acronym was deliberate. It tapped into negative misogynistic stereotypes about feminists, it was an attempt to alienate and isolate, but it also cemented that reversal which is recurrent in identity politics. The real radicals are those who think biological sex is not hardware, but a software program which can be easily overwritten. Those who question this position are not radical at all.

Not RTFT

I think there are a lot of assumptions from your post. Firstly that most of us have been taught to have a feeling one way or another so therefore we could change our opinion based on the way others act.

MN Has this reputation of being the TERF Cauldron Of Doom, but years ago trans issues were almost never mentioned. This was because as a group the FWR section never had a real reason to discuss trans issues. It was at the time almost exclusively female mothers who were acutely aware of biology and how it affected their lives.

However all over the rest of the internet in places like Jezebel or Everyday feminism or whatever other feminist lite groups- trans inclusivity was already starting to be rammed home by activists.

So you started seeing things like "please don't say women menstruate" as it makes my dysphoria act up. Or this should be a safe space and discussing periods causes dysphoria" etc etc. Or feminist pages saying that be-penised women like Synthia China Blast should be in women's prisons. Or you had groups exclusively designed for the empowerment of young girls sharing videos of transgirls talking about how they always wanted a bra and always liked playing with dolls, so knew they were girls. You saw those things interspersed with messages like "don't let anyone tell you what a girl is". The juxtaposition to anyone with a half a brain was obvious.

There are several well known gender critical people who I'm not keen on. It really doesn't matter what they or what they believe because I won't change my mind as my mind was made up by trans people not by gender critical women. Also, it goes without saying that people who call themselves gender-critical are not a hive mind, some aren't even gender critcal, they just don't think you can change sex. As for "terfs" well that's a name brandished by the trans activists themselves so not particularly useful as an identifier as you don't even have to be trans exclusive or a radical feminist to be called it. Just like a tweet that says you'd prefer women not be raped for having "wrong think".

So it’s in their interest to drop it and the associated exposure of what trans means to the general public and think they can carry on getting all the docs rewritten quietly so it’s self ID by practice and default

Yes. Agree 100 pc. It’s the corporates facilitating this now.

I don't know how you would set in law which transwomen are "deserving" of being considered women and which aren't
And even if laws could accommodate this, how would it be policed?

I think they are sliding away from Self ID and the associated lowering of requirements to obtain a GRC due to the light being shone on it. No dysphoria, no medicalised pathway, etc etc because the initial gotcha was well the current requirements don’t require medical treatment and a lot of people whose mental vision of trans was a man with a mental health condition who was feminising his body with surgery were suddenly saying y’what now? You can get a GRC without removing your penis? What?

So it’s in their interest to drop it and the associated exposure of what trans means to the general public and think they can carry on getting all the docs rewritten quietly so it’s self ID by practice and default.

I am still reading up on a lot of this. I found a fair few GC academics who answer the questions I have. e.g. comparisons between homophobia and transphobia-Jane Clare Jones had a great price rebutting this. Are there any academics who can put forward arguments for gender identity?

No way to write laws with that kind of nuance tho.

Yeah, that's the problem. I don't have an answer - I just wish I did.

No way to write laws with that kind of nuance tho.

If it were possible to construct rules that allow say, Fionne Orlander in and keep say, Jessica Yaniv our, we’d never have reached this point.

The only fair place to draw the line is female/male.

The handful of transwomen who I’d feel safe sharing with are the exact some ones who wouldn’t force me to share anyway ¯\(ツ)/¯

There must be people who've gone from "TERF"/gender critical to pro-trans-narrative.

I don't feel like I belong wholly in either camp. Self-ID is completely wrong, competing in women's sports is wrong. And any man who's committed a sexual offence against women should lose the right to ever be considered a woman. No pronouns, nothing.

But do I feel that an elderly person, whose maybe had all the available procedures years ago and has lived a quiet life as a woman ever since, should be able to access a women's toilet or be on a female hospital ward? Yes I do. I don't think I could say to such a person - "you go off to the men's ward because you're really a man".

I don't know how you would set in law which transwomen are "deserving" of being considered women and which aren't. So in some ways I envy those who just say "Transwomen are men" or "transwomen are women" - that seems more straightforward. But I don't feel right with either.

I’m willing to give Amy the benefit of the doubt and accept that her feelings are genuine, even if I don’t recognise the scenarios she describes.

I hope she finds peace and happiness in her future.

All that stuff ^^
But. I’m interested in wtf happened with Amy Dyess. She’s lost her shit and seems to be spouting the nonsensical ‘right wing cult’ stuff. It’s not going to convince me that biology isn’t real, but I’m curious what happened there.

@Bananabixfloof

Oh I absolutely do not think women should be fixing the problem! I just think that Male violence is the big problem and that it relates to all other forms of discrimination and violence within society. Of course the men would have to fix it and of course they won't. I guess it's a bit cyclical! But it's the only thing that would actually change the debate. If we could eradicate Male violence we wouldn't need protecting from men, nor would Trans women and therefore the argument would be over. Instead it's between women and trans women when the problem is men. Men need to sort each other out. Instead of trans women fighting with "Terfs"

Some words missing, I'm sure you can figure it out 🙂

That might be simplistic, but it does not seem that complicated to me as an idea. Of course the issue is HOW

I see what your saying, but why would women even want to open that Hornets nest? If men cba or dont want to fix toxic masculinity then what would we be trying for? Frankly I've enough on my plate with campaigning for women, being called yet more names and being threatened by men for even broaching the subject.

Yes it would help everyone, cannot argue that fact, but why is yet another thing being put upon women. Can men do nothing for themselves? Also as we all know, if a man didnt say it, it was never said.
They can sort themselves out for me.

Sorry posted by accident

Male violence is always the biggest elephant in the room with all forms of discrimination.

If we managed to eradicate it, I have a feeling that police brutality, racism, transphobia, homophobia, sexual assault and pedophilia would basically be eradicated too. Plus war! Sounds like a ridiculous perfect utopia, but all that would need to happen was an end to Male violence.

That might be simplistic, but it does not seem that complicated to me as an idea. Of course the issue is HOW.

Have we just accepted that Male violence is necessary and useful and so intrinsic we just have to accept it?

Male