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Original poster

I'm going to write a book: 'Why I'm no longer talking to men about feminism'

89 replies

TheEighthHorcrux · 14/06/2020 01:14

I am so, so, so frustrated and tired of explaining why it's important that sex based spaces and conversations about the lived experiences of women is important.

Got into a debate about JK Rowling today with a close friend of mine. I am so very deeply hurt that despite saying that I believe anyone and everyone deserves kindness and love and acceptance, I was scoffed at by them in sharing my lived experience as a woman.

These experiences centred around:

  • childbirth
  • sexual assault

I really cannot fathom how someone can blithely dismiss the lived experiences of another person and resolutely ignore the fact that they are asking the same for another group of people.

I'm so angry.

Angry for being laughed at by someone I loved when I dared talk about my experiences (why is this ok to do to women but not men and trans folk?), and angry for being made out to be a bigot in what is becoming a tug of war over who is the most oppressed rather than a discussion of how we can work together.

I am past knowing whether I am articulating myself well enough. I am very angry without knowing where to put the anger. I stand with JK Rowling.

OP posts:
Teatowel1 · 14/06/2020 14:21

I hear you, OP.

0v9c99f9g9d939d9f9g9h8h · 14/06/2020 14:18

Odd thread title then. I didn't realise it was to ignored. Enjoy your rant.

Original poster
TheEighthHorcrux · 14/06/2020 14:17

@ValancyRedfern

That is just awful.

It breaks my heart that these issues are being side lined and any attempt to centre them is met with screams of TERF.

Adult human females matter. Our biology matters and the discrimination and abuse we face as a result of that biology.

FGM is abhorrent. How can anyone argue that abuse and trauma isn't being inflicted on girls and women because of their sex? How can anyone argue that centring that isn't important?

OP posts:
Original poster
TheEighthHorcrux · 14/06/2020 14:08

@0v9c99f9g9d939d9f9g9h8h

If you read my OP, you'll see no mentions of this 'book' beyond the title.

Instead it's more of a rant about how angry I am at my lived experiences as a woman being dismissed by men because either they cannot fathom the extent of it or they simply don't care.

Or to be told that in mentioning experiences of abuse and trauma when talking about them in relation to the importance of sex specific spaces, I am weaponising them.

I want to hear the voices of other women on this issue. I want them to be heard too. For any book, real or imagined, giving a valid platform to women to allow their experiences to be heard by men and anyone else would be my end goal.

But that wasn't really the main focus of the actual thread.

OP posts:
ValancyRedfern · 14/06/2020 14:06

And I highly recommend the book Why I'm no longer talking about race to white people'. To all white people. It really resonated with a lot of the behaviour and attitudes I've witnessed as a teacher of black teenagers.

ValancyRedfern · 14/06/2020 14:04

I'd love to contribute!

Unfortunately it's not just men. I got so upset when a close friend of mine (female and lesbian) described fgm as a 'side issue' in relation to trans rights. I have never felt so clearly and so viscerally the way our whole culture is steeped in misogyny.

Original poster
TheEighthHorcrux · 14/06/2020 14:00

I'm not mocking anything Hmm

I used it because I feel it conveys how I feel...

Talking to men about feminism feels futile and exhausting.

OP posts:
0v9c99f9g9d939d9f9g9h8h · 14/06/2020 13:59

Is this for men to read? What are you trying to accomplish?

WomaninBoots · 14/06/2020 13:58

Why on earth would drawing parallels between the situations be "mocking" the original book?

Personally as I was read WINLTTWPAR I felt that despite being white I could empathise because I had tried to talk to men about mysogyny...

I believe that's all OP is saying by using the book title in this way.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 14/06/2020 13:40

A chapter on data, statistics and how these are being compromised.

ChipsyChopsy · 14/06/2020 13:25

I'm in. Keep speaking out.

GreytExpectations · 14/06/2020 13:25

Are you purposely mocking Reni Eddo-lodge's book? Write a book if you want but it's pretty dickish to be taking her concept as a book title.... Maybe try being a bit more original.

CherryValance · 14/06/2020 13:21

So would I.

KaronAVyrus · 14/06/2020 13:08

I would absolutely buy it.

Original poster
TheEighthHorcrux · 14/06/2020 12:58

I'm here for it. And I feel that there are a myriad of people who would be able to articulate these issues and arguments much better than me.

I am sorting through my rage at the moment. Reading widely. I have not publicly spoken up about these things or stuck my head above the parapet until now.

But I can't stay silent anymore.

OP posts:
ScrimpshawTheSecond · 14/06/2020 12:43

A collection of essays would be amazing. There are several women on this board (and ex of this board) whom I would want to ask to provide contributions.

Each facet of the issues facing us with gender ideology, approached in turn.

This is really presumptuous, but imagining a contents page, here:

Child protection & Safeguarding
Transing children - medical issues
Detransitioners
Academia
Healthcare
Journalism
Education
Sport
Inclusion/religion/BAME
Literature/arts
Politics
Prisons
Freedom of Speech

What did I miss?

This could be incredible.

onalongsabbatical · 14/06/2020 12:19

Please write this book, we all need it. I'm writing a feminist book too but I'm confused as to what my angle is at the moment 9because it's more of a personal memoir type book at the moment). There cannot be too many books that can say these things. If you want to put in research/women's voices, I'm up for being asked.

But yes please do it.

twoHopes · 14/06/2020 12:12

I really cannot fathom how someone can blithely dismiss the lived experiences of another person and resolutely ignore the fact that they are asking the same for another group of people.

It's because men can empathise with transwomen. They think "imagine how difficult my life would be if I started wearing dresses and make up and going by a female name". But they struggle to empathise with what it's like to be sexually harassed or objectified. In fact many men feel jealous of women - they think "imagine how amazing it would be to have all these men lusting after you".

Helmetbymidnight · 14/06/2020 11:54

I really cannot fathom how someone can blithely dismiss the lived experiences of another person and resolutely ignore the fact that they are asking the same for another group of people.

you said it better than i did. yes. exactly.

Helmetbymidnight · 14/06/2020 11:52

ive been talking to women who've been very sneery about the idea of single sex spaces for safety reasons 'are you saying all men and/or tw are predators?' etc- yet are very happy to believe tw are in constant danger from men.
why Tw's fear is legitimate but ours is not, i dont know.

Helmetbymidnight · 14/06/2020 11:48

i get you op. Do it.

you know you could also do it essay style and ask for contributors?

my literary agent is gc - she'd rep it im sure.

i think helen joyce and maybe kathleen stock are writing books- but theyll be more academic/generalist(?) in focus i think.

BolloxtoGender · 14/06/2020 11:35

Maybe swap ‘feminism’ with ‘misogyny’ for equivalence?

But yes, that’s a preorder from me.

WomaninBoots · 14/06/2020 11:33

I hear you. Flowers

I was talking a male friend about this a while ago, talking about being sexually assaulted. I gave up in the end. It was fairly polite and he didn't call me a bigot but he just wasnt getting it.

Thankfully my DH has finally got it and he's pretty damn angry about it too. So there is hope. I still don't think he 100% gets the feeling of vulnerability it all brings but he believes me when I talk about it.

OhHolyJesus · 14/06/2020 11:12

Would also buy and distribute copies.

Has JKR wrote the forward.

Original poster
TheEighthHorcrux · 14/06/2020 11:08

I am still baffled and heartbroken and saddened by the reaction. And today I literally can't stop thinking about it.

I am pretty sure I am not hateful or a bigot. That my adamancy that sex is important for a number of reasons doesn't come from a place that wants to restrict anyone's human rights.

When I had my daughter it was traumatic both during and after. I was poked and prodded at, my autonomy was stolen from me, my dignity wasn't safeguarded and I was dismissed for almost all of my valid concerns.

Sharing this was met with an eye roll and a scoff. Like this is not important? Like we should not be talking about this? Like we should just quietly accept it and move on? Like my experiences in childbirth haven't affected me for almost 5 years after the fact.

Similarly, sharing my experiences of sexual abuse from the ages of 12-16 and how this shapes my response to this issue was met with a tut. In that moment I felt the full rage that Jk Rowling must be feeling following her disclosure of abuse. The implication is that people are bored of it. Of course women are raped and degraded and subject to torture and worse all over the world because of the biology and bodies they were born with.

But that's boring now. Why on earth would you want to reduce yourself to your genitals??? 'Woman' is a feeling. I've yet to see the specific criteria of feeling that makes a woman though. And he was not able to give this to me.

I am rambling. But I'm so angry. So, so angry. I am angry that all attempts at reasonable, intelligent discusssion are shut down with screams of transphobe and violent sexual threats. Mostly I am angry because I feel so impotent in what I can do in the face of such scathing disrespect for my sex and my experiences that have shaped my life - all of which wouldn't have occurred if I was male.

OP posts:
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