'Dismantling cisgender privilege'

In the media, trans women get articles detailing their brave and stunning business achievements, and trans men hit the headlines for being pregnant. 🧐

Transmen ways get ignored.

Its just always so obvious isn't it. Its such a male centred movement, I'm talking about TRAs, not your average trans person, boils down to "I want to look like a woman but still be treated like a man"

This strikes me over and over again as a repeat of the frequent MN bunfight on 'if you've parked a buggy in the disabled space on the bus, should you move if a wheelchair user needs it'.

You will always find those arguing that they are so disadvantaged having a buggy and being unable to fold it and their child is asleep and it's not safe to ask anyone else to hold the child, and it's their space as much as a wheelchair user's and they were there first and on and on and on.

The facts stand that disabled spaces were provided for wheelchair users after decades of campaigning. They are designated for wheelchair users - the fact that they are useful to people with buggies doesn't change that - and without those spaces, wheelchair users can't access a bus. Or get to work. Or travel independently. Or affordably. Those spaces are their equality, their independence.

But you will always find the spectacularly selfish arguing that their disadvantage means they are more important and entitled to that space than those it was designed for. While not bothering to, say, campaign for additional buggy spaces to go on busses instead of taking away other people's provision and damaging their access.

Given birth and gynaecological outcomes for black women in the states are woefully even more terrible than for white women (as they are here) I imagine they're even lower on the heap of privilege.

Trumped again by men.

I think 'cis privilege' is a very simplistic term which doesn't really get to the root of what privilege means.

I think many of trans women see women as having privilege over them because especially late transitionsers have an idealised view of what it is to be a woman without recognising the benefits that they have from growing up male. They start to present as female and suddenly their voice is no longer heard, they are not taken seriously, they are judged on their appearance and they see that as transmisogyny but it isn't, its the reality of life for 'people who are not men'.

Transmen ways get ignored.

They get a special mix of misogyny and actual transphobia reserved just for them.

. If there isn't a disabled toilet, then she just has to hold it and hope that she doesn't wet herself.

Omg! That's terrible!

Imagine if you were actually disabled

"We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.
We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered.

I think we can agree that a large proportion of the violence black trans women face is from men so I see that as a male issue.

Is there any mention of black trans men? GNC black women seem to genuinely face disproportionate misogyny, antagonism and violence. I can't imagine trans men have it any easier.

(Sorry, I know this isn’t really discussing the main topic of the thread, but it needed to be said)

As for ‘c** privilege, just don’t even try to seriously argue that.

It is male privilege through and through, from every angle.

Absolutely, trans individuals are entitled to safe spaces. They have a right to go about their business peacefully and without fear of harm.

This needs to be afforded to them without appropriating women’s safe spaces to the advantage of men.

It is not true that if there is a toilet for men there will be one for women. In many cases where toilets have become ‘gender neutral’ it is the women’s toilets that are appropriated. Men’s stay intact. That is not right, and should not happen.

I’m going to say it here, just because I say this everywhere I see it mentioned.

Do not use Cis to describe me. It is hugely offensive and I reject it entirely.

I am not a subset of what a man has decided he is. I am a woman.

*If I look at the way my relative is treated, women assume they are a threat, and men assume they are a cissy/traitor, so they are treated worse than a non-trans person who is biologically male. As I said, because they see trans as traitors, men won't let my relative use the men's toilet.+

That’s not women having ‘cis’ privilege, that’s the male pecking order. Gross, sure, but not women’s problem to fix. We campaigned for toilets and other facilities for female people in order to exclude ALL male people.

Y’know, for our own safety, dignity and privacy.

As a biological woman I at least don't have to worry about whether there will be a toilet for me, because if there is one for men then there will definitely be one for me.

Either you are very posh and have never had to worry about stuff like men putting their heads under the cubicle, avoiding drug users, trying to keep your foot wedges against a broken door/missing lock

Or you’ve never had a baby in a push chair that won’t fit through the loo door

Or you’ve never had a sensitive bladder/pregnancy or age related incontinence leave you desperate for a non existent loo.

Penis people (of all genders and all mobility levels) can wazz behind a tree. Very hard when you have the anatomy that needs to squat and are pregnant and.10 days overdue or a senior citizen with knee problems.

As a previous poster said ‘Cis privilege my arse’.

Being a trans person who is imperfect at passing puts you below biological women

But if you don’t ‘pass’ as a woman, you are surely perceived to be a man?

And Male privilege is definitely a thing.

I'm curious as to how removing rights from female people (which are needed for their access to provisions and to society in a way approaching equality to male people, it's not anywhere near there yet), which is what is meant by 'dismantling' really, does anything to help with male people being rejecting and violent to male people who present in non stereotypical ways, or insufficiently trained and available health care professionals experienced in working with the specific issues experienced by trans people.

Surely the answer to this is to provide additional trans specific services, such as gender neutral toilets in addition to single sex, and additional health care, additional mixed sex or LGBT specific refuges, specialist prison units and so on, addressing the actual issues causing the inequality?

Rather than taking female rights away, commandeering female spaces and seeing the harm to women as being some kind of compensation? What does just switching the privilege around and causing inequality and injustice and exclusion to another group do to make things better? How does this make for a happier society, instead of one with more resentment, anger, divisiveness?

Genuinely curious.

But saying "Black Lives Matter" is not becoming a member of the organisation.
All the posts asking for donations, for example, are for bail and legal fees. Not to this central organisation.

BLM as an organisation is queer theory driven communism, plain and simple. It is very cleverly hijacking the hearts and minds of people who have absolutely no idea about the ramifications of what they're mobilising for, or against.

The BLM website isn't an organised head of a movement - it's just one group of people who happened to get the domain name.

PeaceCheese.
What you say is relatable, but I think flawed by failing to recognise who/where actually has the advantage.
What is happening to your relative is a result of good old fashioned sexism - your relative is discriminated against by men because they are male (but are feminine) and is viewed with suspicion by women because they are male and in a safe space for women. The 'cis' women here are not responding from privilege but from fear.
But I would agree that it's not fair that your relative doesn't have a place to go where they feel safe and unchallenged.

we fight to ensure that everyone gets treated fairly. We fight to raise all people to the same level. And here, we do that for women. BAME women, disabled women, women who think they are men, women with children, women with no children through choice, women who can't have children

We know there are problems for other people too, race, class, age, sexuality, disability, we know that male mental health is an issue, but each set of problems is different, with different causes and solutions

this board is focussed on women

Cis privilege is not a thing

I think we as women who were born female definitely have privilege over trans females

Trans females - you mean men? Women don't have privilege over men.

I have a delightful trans female relative who often has to use the disabled toilet because she gets challenged if she tries to use the women's, and challenged if she tries to use the men

If your relative doesn't pass as female there is no reason they should not use the men's.

Being a trans person who is imperfect at passing puts you below biological women

No, it means that everybody can see you are a man therefore you retain male privilege. Men are not 'below' women in terms of privilege.

Trans people have a harder time finding employment and housing, and so are more likely to end up homeless or involved in sex work. They are more likely to get substandard healthcare because the trans body works differently to a biologically male or female body (assuming that they're on hormones). Unsurprisingly, all of this leads to a higher suicide rate for trans people.

There is no evidence of any of that in the U.K. Heath issues are in great part because trans people change their sex markers on their health records which leads to confusion and misdiagnosis.

With regards to suicide - trans people do not have a higher rate of suicide than any other 'vulnerable' population. The highest risk group for suicide is Middle Aged straight men. Suicidality isn't a measure for oppression.

And really you have just described why calling transwomen women and letting them use women's facilities is pointless

The problems that transwomen face are not the problems that women face

Also, be careful with the sex work and any suicide stats though, that's very culture dependent,

We only have sex separated facilities to overcome the injustice that is abuse and discrimination that would otherwise prevent many women going out in public.

If trans is a significant brain to body problem then the person is entitled to use disabled facilities , if that's a problem it's because disabled people are usually overlooked