'Dismantling cisgender privilege'

So what they're suggesting is that "not being shat on for being feminine" is a privilege.

That 'nice dog' graphic above nails it. They're upset because a woman can wear a pretty dress and not get odd looks for it. Whether that woman would like to wear a pretty dress, whether that woman had more than her fair share of being forced to wear pretty dresses as a child and would rather wear a sack, doesn't occur to them. They want it, and they're the only ones that are real people in their heads.

(Reminds self to get school to take sissy the ducking off the book list)

That's not females having privilege over trans women

It's also not what "cis privilege" usually refers to. For a start the quoted poster got the comparator right!

The idea is that women are privileged because we're allowed to do the girly performance without getting our heads kicked in.

What they don't like to acknowledge is that if we don't do the girly performance we run the risk of getting our heads kicked in.

If "cis" were actually a thing (as opposed to the most recent in a long history of attempts to recast our oppression as innate and natural) then "cis women" would have theoretical privilege over non-cis women. Of the actual becunted variety. Not over people with dicks.

Why is it the word 'dismantle' that makes my blood run cold?

If I look at the way my relative is treated, women assume they are a threat, and men assume they are a cissy/traitor, so they are treated worse than a non-trans person who is biologically male. As I said, because they see trans as traitors, men won't let my relative use the men's toilet.

That's not females having privilege over trans women. That's females correctly identifying that any member of the biologically male group is a potential threat to us, and males bullying other males. And members of the male group do much worse to females than not let them into bogs.

It's like saying the slave that loves his master is privileged over the slave that despises his master.

Yeah, the former might have an easier time of it in some respects, but they're both still slaves.

Just linking back to the thread title - cisgender privilege - in common usage this word cis/siss actually means "feminine" regardless of sex.

So what they're suggesting is that "not being shat on for being feminine" is a privilege.

They really don't have the ability to empathise, do they? To them it's a sexy costume, an identity, a fine way to escape when life is hard. To us it's the mechanism by which we're obliged to be complicit in our own oppression.

I agree that those of us who are psychologically unable to comply with the demands of gender are at a disadvantage compared to our peers who are able to find a way to live with or even enjoy the whole skirts and sparkles wossname. But to say that the latter are privileged by this - no. That's erasing and denying the reality of what gender is and how it functions.

Sorry Tyro that was less to you than to lurkers. As many females as possible need to know the realities of what women on that thread have had to deal with.

And yes, its interesting.

I know, Michelle - I'm on there!

I'm just musing really. The term "cis man" never really caught on as a way to describe comfortably-masculine men, because that word (albeit with slightly different spelling) already meant effeminate.

Effeminate males are usually described as "sissy" (with an S).

There's also a decades long history of porn on males getting off on being 'sissified' by being made to dress in 'girls clothes' as humiliation and then being sexually abused by someone dominant, known as 'sissy porn'. If you read the TransWidow threads you'll find a number of women describe having experienced this desire from a cross dressing husband, not in a good way.

men assume they are a cissy/traitor,

Now there's an illuminating spelling error.

Effeminate males are usually described as "sissy" (with an S). Men assume your relative is a sissy, not a cissy - because they perceive your relative to be male.

Feminine stereotypes in female bodies = cis; used pejoratively.
Feminine stereotypes in male bodies = sissy; used pejoratively.

No one ever really talks about "cis men" and sometimes I wonder why; starting to think it's because, regardless of the dictionary definition and regardless of spelling, in common usage the word means "deemed to be embodying feminine stereotypes".

Sorry, that's probably a bit of a derail. Will now scroll back up and read the rest of the thread.

I wondered where everyone had gone... just seen a new thread!

mobile.twitter.com/WomenReadWomen/status/1270163621872451584

They are more likely to get substandard healthcare because the trans body works differently to a biologically male or female body (assuming that they're on hormones).

Trans bodies work in the exact same way as any other body. Cross-sex hormones are not good for any human, leading to a number of issues for women and men.

So for example (and off the top of my head), transwomen on hormones may have heart problems, and transmen may suffer from vaginal atrophy.

I'm not shocked though, it's always the same. 'Come the revolution, sister, we'll sort your problems out. Until then perhaps you could give out some leafets...'

The only reason why transgender people might be given less than ideal healthcare is because of wider implications of idiotic trans speak like ‘people who menstruate’ or ‘cervix-havers’.

Yes.

Although those most likely to suffer are female people who don't speak English as a first language, who struggle with reading, or who have disabilities around language processing. Particularly since this is jargon very specific to the trans culture. Most people in the street are still walking around going 'what's the c** word they keep saying on the radio?'

The Deptford Women's Project were pointing out about two years ago now the issues with meeting front line needs with the least privileged groups in society when highly educated, affluent, middle class white students kept arriving to tell their service users about the language they needed to use, and that they the students were far more oppressed and underprivileged than those in the room - who were homeless, struggling with additions, escaping violence and so on. The letter the project workers wrote is very well worth a read when looking at confused views of what is and is not privilege.

The only reason why transgender people might be given less than ideal healthcare is because of wider implications of idiotic trans speak like ‘people who menstruate’ or ‘cervix-havers’.

What this is really about is anger and resentment from those born male that biological females do not have to do anything to be perceived as and have bodies that work as female. Biological males on the other hand have to do a great deal to get others to perceive them as female and do not have the biology they feel they should have, and this is seen as a disadvantaged womanhood to those who believe that TWAW.

The anger from biological females is that this has absolutely no awareness or comprehension of the fundamental disadvantage of being female, and the inequality of being female, all of which are based solely on being born with female biology. They cannot be identified out of, in the way that the language, concepts and resources of womanhood can now be identified into by those without that fundamental biological disadvantage. To female people it can feel rather like being a wheelchair user facing someone furiously distressed, angry and blaming that they don't have a wheelchair too and would really like to have one and not be able to walk. The language to talk to each other, to share the experience of being female, to seek support or resources to address the specific disadvantages of female biology are now suddenly supposed to be seen on their part as acts of aggression, because they fail to centre the feelings and needs of biological males.

Those born male can have no concept of what these disadvantages and oppressions of having female biology really are, and this is helped along because a) they have the male biological and trans experience, not the female one, and b) because it isn't relevant, and male socialisation and an unequal society makes it automatic for males not to need to be aware of or care about issues that don't affect them.

As a result, it can come across as fundamental and unreasonable male anger with females just for being female, as this constantly reminds that there is a meaningful difference in being born female and born male and that this is a reality no matter how distressing it is to face or how much people are encouraged to change language and spaces to conceal it. And often this appears to wish some sort of ill fate or sacrifice or visible loss on the part of female people in the form of payment for their natural and so unfair good fortune.

To female people, this can seem just more of the same entitled, oppressive, dominating and tone deaf behaviour from males they are so very used to, earned solely by the bad luck of having been conceived a biological female.

Its not a win-win bit of language.

Yes and the stats on murders and ‘dead by X age’ are also entirely untrue and/or misappropriated.

Far too many people are made to feel like they can't challenge these myths because of the threats of suicide rates.

Here's what my "cis privilege" amounted to growing up (I'm 62):

• I'm a coal miner's daughter and had two brothers. I didn't live in a house with a bathroom (we simply had an outside toilet across the yard which had no washbasin) until I was 16 and shared a bedroom with one brother, then the other, as we had only 2 bedrooms in the house. Only women can draw from that situation the correct inferences about what that was like for a teenage girl.

*My mother was hospitalised with severe, suicidal depression in the March of my O level year and remained so until the October. I was then in sole charge of running the house, cooking, cleaning, etc (my older brother was by now down the pit alongside my Dad and they worked different shifts) and caring for my 7-year-old brother. This whilst trying to study for my O levels.

I could go on. "Cis fucking privilege"? Girls and women, especially working-class girls and women, continue to be seriously disadvantaged compared to men. There is NO advantage or "privilege" to being born female in any part of the world.

Women - share your "cis privilege" stories.

This is why as a black woman I cannot support the BLM organisation. It's not for me.

Nor can this black woman. That organisation does not in any way represent my views or the views of any black person I know personally. They are a "queer" organisation masquerading as a black one. I despise the underhandedness of the name.