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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hannah Gadsby - Netflix

59 replies

RuffleCrow · 13/06/2020 22:29

Anyone fancy challenging her over a "Hermione is probably a Terf' 'joke' in her new Netflix show, 'Douglas'? I believe she's on Twitter. No doubt EW's legal team are already on it for entirely different legal reasons.

She immediately justified it by saying she was "punching up". Wtf Shock

I switched off straight afterwards so no idea if she was actually setting up a meta joke about how we shouldn't throw dangerous labels at each other. I doubt it though. Really disappointing as I thought her previous show, Nanette, was really good. I guess it's gone to her head and she doesn't need educated (GCSE Science) women anymore. Sad

Do we think she's genuinely ignorant of the way the word is used, or is she lashing out at other women for some reason?

If it's any consolation, I think about one person gave her a pity laugh.

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sashagabadon · 14/06/2020 08:30

@DonkeySkin

I think, as Meghan Murphy, JK Rowling, Magdalen Berns, Posie Parker et al have shown, persuasive arguments are what we do best.

The thing is though, often we aren't even having the right argument.

By which I mean, we think we are arguing with women (like Gadsby) about whether men can be women or not. But that's not the real dispute. Every woman who chants 'trans women are women' knows as well as we do that people can't change sex. They know the difference between males and females, even if they pretend to think it's terribly complicated.

The reason they say 'trans women are women' is not because they literally think they are women, but because they think that feminine-presenting men are enough like women. They think we share a common condition because we are both denigrated by men. They think that any man who wants to be a woman - or present like one - must be motivated by an intense identification and empathy with women. They want to join 'team woman', and since they are suffering so much and we share so many things in common, it would be churlish of us not to let them. Many women are terribly flattered that they want to join in the first place.

Unfortunately, all these assumptions are in error. As the behaviour and political aims of the trans movement demonstrate, men who identify as women or non-binary don't actually have much empathy for women, or understanding of our lives. Liking certain aspects of femininity, such as make-up or clothes or being sexually submissive, is not the same thing as being in solidarity with women, nor does it give any real insight into the experience of being female. Men who take on superficial markers of femininity are not 'treated like women' (by definition, they can't be, if people still perceive them as male), even if they are sometimes treated badly.

So women talk about how much they empathise with men who say they identify as us, while they display an ongoing disregard for our feelings, and push for laws and policies that are directly contrary to the wellbeing, safety and flourishing of the female half of society. If we dare to point out how some of their demands might harm - or have harmed - women and girls, they either abuse and threaten us, or guilt trip us into conceding that our needs (for privacy, safety, clear medical language, fair sporting opportunities, pick one) are unimportant. So much for 'team woman'.

In this 'sisterhood' to which all women are now expected to swear allegiance, the solidarity and compassion (not to mention the resources) go only one way, from female to male.

And we continue to have infuriating pseudo-debates about gametes and chromosomes with other women, when we should be pointing out all of the above to them instead.

wow! I've never thought of it that way - but you're right. That is exactly it.
VashtaNerada · 14/06/2020 07:57

I know this is a hornet’s nest I should leave well alone and I generally do, but I am surprised by a misogynistic movement that encourages violence against women. I do agree that there are some disgusting views from some trans activists on Twitter, I certainly don’t condone the vile threats to JKR, but I’ve never found trans people in general to be like that at all. That’s one hell of a generalisation. Every trans person I’ve ever met (& I met a lot when I worked in an equalities job years ago) wanted to stay well away from the nastiness and just live their life.

CourtneyLurve · 14/06/2020 06:45

She was beaten to a pulp in a hate crime and now sides with a misogynistic movement that encourages violence against women.

I had her new special bookmarked. Won't be watching now.

Collidascope · 14/06/2020 06:31

And I agree with your post completely, DonkeySkin.

Collidascope · 14/06/2020 06:19

What a shame. She could easily have posted that without the snipe about JKR doing her learning aloud (she didn't, she researched extensively for a couple of yrs privately...) and without the "doesn't matter nearly as much as she thinks she does" (JK didn't exactly create this furore, did she? No one was obliged to reply to her or report on her. She simply said things, the way most people do on Twitter).

Those unwarranted snipes in the context of the misogynistic abuse JK received are really unpleasant, I think.

DonkeySkin · 14/06/2020 02:38

I think, as Meghan Murphy, JK Rowling, Magdalen Berns, Posie Parker et al have shown, persuasive arguments are what we do best.

The thing is though, often we aren't even having the right argument.

By which I mean, we think we are arguing with women (like Gadsby) about whether men can be women or not. But that's not the real dispute. Every woman who chants 'trans women are women' knows as well as we do that people can't change sex. They know the difference between males and females, even if they pretend to think it's terribly complicated.

The reason they say 'trans women are women' is not because they literally think they are women, but because they think that feminine-presenting men are enough like women. They think we share a common condition because we are both denigrated by men. They think that any man who wants to be a woman - or present like one - must be motivated by an intense identification and empathy with women. They want to join 'team woman', and since they are suffering so much and we share so many things in common, it would be churlish of us not to let them. Many women are terribly flattered that they want to join in the first place.

Unfortunately, all these assumptions are in error. As the behaviour and political aims of the trans movement demonstrate, men who identify as women or non-binary don't actually have much empathy for women, or understanding of our lives. Liking certain aspects of femininity, such as make-up or clothes or being sexually submissive, is not the same thing as being in solidarity with women, nor does it give any real insight into the experience of being female. Men who take on superficial markers of femininity are not 'treated like women' (by definition, they can't be, if people still perceive them as male), even if they are sometimes treated badly.

So women talk about how much they empathise with men who say they identify as us, while they display an ongoing disregard for our feelings, and push for laws and policies that are directly contrary to the wellbeing, safety and flourishing of the female half of society. If we dare to point out how some of their demands might harm - or have harmed - women and girls, they either abuse and threaten us, or guilt trip us into conceding that our needs (for privacy, safety, clear medical language, fair sporting opportunities, pick one) are unimportant. So much for 'team woman'.

In this 'sisterhood' to which all women are now expected to swear allegiance, the solidarity and compassion (not to mention the resources) go only one way, from female to male.

And we continue to have infuriating pseudo-debates about gametes and chromosomes with other women, when we should be pointing out all of the above to them instead.

LillianBland · 14/06/2020 02:28

If it’s any consolation, the vast majority of posters on her Twitter are disgusted with her. She’s also pissed of people by using BLM as a prop to take a dig at JK.

DidoLamenting · 14/06/2020 01:37

She didn't need to say what she did. She could have said nothing. She got the timing wrong and she just looks opportunistic now.

LockdownLump · 14/06/2020 01:33

Aww I'm upset by this. Watched Hannah's stand up last year and cried and laughed with her.

What a shame

DidoLamenting · 14/06/2020 01:28

Is it the JK Rowling dig that has people so angry?

I think Gadsby's badly cut and too tight suit meant she was a bit too slow in running after the bandwagon. It rolled on without her. See the first reply to her. That sets the tone- there is a fair amount of cynicism about why she said this.

mobile.twitter.com/Hannahgadsby/status/1271594929085485056

DonkeySkin · 14/06/2020 01:19

why would it be career suicide to articulate something that most people instinctively know to be true and agree with?

Did you see what happened to JK Rowling last week? (Rhetorical question.) Denounced by the stars of both her movie franchises, while not one of the many, many artists and performers she has collaborated with and made pots of money for stepped forward to defend her against the most vile, misogynistic abuse. And she is one of the richest and most famous women in the world. I know people say, 'she's got squillions, she'll be fine', but I think that's a reductive way of looking at it. Decades of hard work as an author and a philanthropist, and it might all go on the bonfire of the woke cultural revolution.

Majority opinion doesn't matter if an intransigent, intolerant minority is able to ensure that the cost of going against them is too high for most people to accept.

Melia100 · 14/06/2020 00:17

Vashta

Notice the glaring omission in her 'Lives Matter' statement?

Yeah.

Women and girls.

You might not think that matters; I do.

nauticant · 14/06/2020 00:16

The focus must always been on persuading the broader public in addition to your own side.

DidoLamenting · 14/06/2020 00:15

I never understood why some posters on here held her in such esteem.

She's a one trick pony spouting obvious woke platitudes. I didn't laugh once at anything in this.

I see she's getting a pasting for being a sanctimonious bandwagon hopper.

RuffleCrow · 14/06/2020 00:13

I'd strongly dispute that @nauticant. I think, as Meghan Murphy, JK Rowling, Magdalen Berns, Posie Parker et al have shown, persuasive arguments are what we do best. Sadly, it seems something in the psyche of many people responds much more readily to overt threats of violence when it comes to picking a side. Sad

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Melia100 · 14/06/2020 00:12

This makes me sad that she would do to women the things she suffered from and try to justify it

It doesn't make me sad; it makes me angry. She is not an unthinking woman. She has made a deliberate choice to take the easier path on this one, and as we all know, the easier path is the woman-hating path.

VashtaNerada · 14/06/2020 00:09

I like her. She’s right to say that trans lives matter (I hope that no-one would disagree with that!). I was a little taken aback by the Hermione joke but it didn’t completely put me off the show. Is it the JK Rowling dig that has people so angry?

nauticant · 14/06/2020 00:03

Yet again DonkeySkin you post something that's really worth reading.

The two things that are often missing from the GC side is that being persuasive to the general public is more useful than "I'm right, dammit" and the value of forgiveness of the prodigal sons and daughters looking for a way back.

SD1978 · 14/06/2020 00:01

This is very unfortunate- I agreed with her wholeheartedly with Nanette- it's was a great show and she identified herself that she had been asked many times if she was trans, due to her dress and speech and was happy being 'butch' lesbian. And now she falls too. Damn shame.

TehBewilderness · 14/06/2020 00:00

@RuffleCrow

And why would it be career suicide to articulate something that most people instinctively know to be true and agree with?
For the actors the Wachowski brothers who are now sisters have a lot of power and they are eager to use it.
TehBewilderness · 13/06/2020 23:59

This makes me sad that she would do to women the things she suffered from and try to justify it.

RuffleCrow · 13/06/2020 23:59

And why would it be career suicide to articulate something that most people instinctively know to be true and agree with?

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hypernormal · 13/06/2020 23:50

'Shut mouth. Open purse.' Jesus, even the imagery is all there, sounds like a misogynistic husband speaking to his wife, telling her to shut up and open her legs.

RuffleCrow · 13/06/2020 23:50

I'm so sorry to hear that @melia100. I'm not directly affected (yet) by the trans youth issue, but i can imagine how horrible it must be to have a brilliant role model for your dd jump head first into the Koolaid. Sad

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hypernormal · 13/06/2020 23:48

It's amazing to me, no matter what female celebs like her might think of Rowling's statements (has she even read them, though?), that a woman as aware of feminism as she is would choose such a misogynistic method of bullying. That Rowling 'doesn't matter as much as she thinks she does' - yes, let's bring the uppity bitch down a peg, she's too rich and too old to be commenting. When did Jo Rowling ever indicate that she thought her views were important? She was responding to the witch hunters who've been on her trail ever since she accidentally liked a tweet ages ago, heaping misogynistic abuse on her and telling her to choke on their trans cocks. How can women like her not see through this abuse for what it is? How can she join in? I feel the same way about Jameela, although she is obviously much more attention seeking, her career now seems to be based entirely upon how many woke points she can score on Twitter. But the victim-blaming and catty remarks reek of 'cool girls' bullying in the playground. Telling her to 'Shut mouth. Open purse.' Yes, shut up you silly woman, don't you know women aren't allowed to have opinions that aren't approved by the male majority? Even Paris Lees stepped in to tell her to calm it down. Only commented on the Sun newspaper printing the story about her ex-partner, because that's an allowed opinion because the Sun is obvs evil, but no other comments about the hoards piling on telling her to suck their dicks, no expression of sympathy for what she's been through. Utterly utterly disgusted with the pair of them. They're the equivalent of the ones who hang around with bullies in school, cheering them on to save their own necks.