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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DD is gender non conforming

112 replies

Rushhomeroad · 13/06/2020 12:46

DD is 9 and has been gender non conforming since about 3. When I say gender non conforming, I mean she prefers to look like a boy ('male' clothes, short hair, 'male' activities and games). She has been mistaken for a boy all her life and she's not particularly bothered. I've asked if she wants me to correct people but generally she doesn't.
I've never been bothered by what she chooses to wear or play, as long as she's happy, so am I (DH is the same). She saw a few children's programs about children changing sex when she was about 7 and asked if she could become a boy. We talked about it and I explained that there was no magic wand that would give her a penis - the children in the documentaries still had female genitals in their pants. I explained what they would have to go through to become a different sex (surgery, medicine etc). I also told her she was born perfect, and that I loved her just the way she is without needing surgery or medicine to feel accepted. The relief she felt was very obvious - immediate reduction in tears and tantrums, more cuddles and happier child. We're all happy... apart from the increasing number of times she is confronted by strangers. She rarely goes to clubs or classes if she doesn't know anyone, following being cornered by 6 older girls in a girls toilet, telling her she had to leave as she was a boy. She's had similar at holiday clubs. Her swimming lessons had group changing and three families moved class as they didn't want their daughters changing with a boy. So what do I do if society isn't ready to embrace gender non conformity? DD has even used men's public toilets when out with her dad rather than go in the women's alone. So how do we make women's safe spaces safe for girls/women who are non conforming? I even laughed at one parent and asked that if I was trying to pass my son off as a girl, I would have put a lot more effort into it!!
So she doesn't need a third space, she is using facilities intended for her sex, but still isn't safe.
Suggestions?

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DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 13/06/2020 14:10

There aren't that many of us in some places though!

Believe me, I know! I’ve though about some kind of rent-a-butch ‘auntie’ scheme! Especially as lots of GNC adult women are aware of what’s happening to GNC youth and do want to help if they can.

One of the things that was suggested to me when chatting at the after party of a Make More Noise event was to seek out and employ female-owned and operated trades companies, ie female plumbers, sparks, landscapers etc.
The work tends to attract GNC women and it brings them to your home so that GNC daughters can casually meet them.

Bonus is supporting women-owned companies and feeling safer when tradespeople are in your home.

I haven’t tried it yet because I can do most stuff myself but I am definitely going to keep it in mind next time we hire someone in!

ttigerlilly · 13/06/2020 14:07

You sound like wonderfully supportive parents. Your DD is very lucky Star

It makes me so sad that in this day and age, people are still being judged just for being who they are. Especially children!

Your DD trying to live her life as her authentic self and that should be applauded.

As other posters have said - both you and DD should keep doing exactly what you're doing. I admire you both.

Rushhomeroad · 13/06/2020 14:06

What sort of things can you say to convince others in public toilets etc? I use her name, but I've even had people say, 'oh, that's an unusual name for a boy!'.

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Rushhomeroad · 13/06/2020 14:03
Grin Thanks for the offer flyingoink!
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FlyingOink · 13/06/2020 14:01

It’s not enough just saying that it’s ok to be GNC, they need to actually be around visibly GNC women (just GNC acting isn’t enough).

There aren't that many of us in some places though!
(I'm available for weddings funerals and bar mitzvahs)

FlyingOink · 13/06/2020 13:59

We never found a good solution to her entering women's only spaces other than me saying something to her that clearly indicated she was a girl if anyone started to look uncomfortable.
Yes there are certain tactics that help.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 13/06/2020 13:57

The best advice I can give you is to let her see adult GNC women in real life. Many of the detransitioners have said that they didn’t really understand that growing up to be a butch woman (lesbian or straight) was any more than a theoretical thing, all the GNC female people they saw on YouTube etc were transboys or identified as non binary. One even said she didn’t think she could actually be a lesbian because she wasn’t attracted to transgirls and ‘transwomen are women’ 😢

It’s not enough just saying that it’s ok to be GNC, they need to actually be around visibly GNC women (just GNC acting isn’t enough).

Hard during the current virus situation I know, but I am going to be arranging a LOT of accidental-bump-into-let’s-pop-for-coffee meetings with happy, successful GNC women with my stepdaughter in tow, as soon as I am able.

Her dad and I are very non conforming aesthetically but in a counter culture way, rather than gender way and that doesn’t seem to exist among the current crop of kids. Anyone who would once have been goth/punk/emo/hippy/grungey/metalhead/mosher seems to swept under the ‘queer’ umbrella in high school 2020.

Our girl has been looking at some of the many detransitioner videos now being published on YouTube and is finding lots in common with the reidentified women and girls, despite never actually making it to proper transition (due to us putting the breaks on hard and arguing it out with the school). Your daughter is still too young for those ideas, but could be worth familiarising yourself with them to be able to anticipate some of the potential challenges ahead.

FlyingOink · 13/06/2020 13:56

Rushhomeroad
Some female marker might help. I swam in Speedos as a kid but I had a ponytail. I also wore only boys clothes and played with only boys and only took part in boys activities. Although I cut off all my hair at 13, up until then the hair was enough of a signifier to get strangers off my back.

I know this sounds a bit defeatist. Would she wear earrings maybe? Trying to think of something to placate the masses whilst allowing her to (mostly) be herself..

Things are more gendered now that when I was a child and a friend whose daughter has asked for her hair to be cut off (she allowed it and the girl is delighted) gets the same transy questions too. Incidentally the child is now more comfortable wearing girls clothes now her hair is short.

It's not right to have to do it, I know. I'm so pleased you're standing up for her, and I'm so grateful to my mum for doing the same.

And that doctor sounds like a total wanker.

Bookoffacts · 13/06/2020 13:52

A lot of girls have very short haircuts. The parents in that changing room are idiots and possibly also unconsciously homophobic.

There are all sorts of girls. When did it become so awful. :'(

I mainly blame the beauty industry. A daughter is not a little barbie doll. She is her own person and all girls are valid. I am an engineer and I was interested in engineering as a child, and I had very short hair as I wouldn't comb/brush it and I hated barbie dolls in toy and real life form. I was a girl and I am a woman.

Rushhomeroad · 13/06/2020 13:51

Thanks for the podcast and book recommendations

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Rushhomeroad · 13/06/2020 13:50

"Don't you think a LOT of girls would rather wear something more modest than a traditional girl's bathing suit?"

I'm not clear on your point?

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Poppinjay · 13/06/2020 13:49

My now 17YO went through exactly the same and aged 9 was indistinguishable from a boy to most.

She also wore a rash vest for swimming.

I was also told her school would support her transition and explained my position.

She still has short hair, wears lots of boys clothes but she also wears nail varnish and occasionally make-up. She now says she isn't stereotyped by gender and is happy.

We never found a good solution to her entering women's only spaces other than me saying something to her that clearly indicated she was a girl if anyone started to look uncomfortable.

FWIW, I think you're doing exactly the right thing.

Nearlyalmost50 · 13/06/2020 13:48

My dd has had very short hair and constantly got called a boy, she's not even gender fluid, that she's mentioned, she just liked short hair, but it was such a pain to put up with the silly comments from boys at her school, people in the street ('look mum, a boy in a skirt' was one of the better ones) that she's grown her hair long.

Gender has got more constraining, not less. My dd knows she's a girl, and that the people who think girls have long hair are utterly ridiculous but has given up trying to change from within. It's absolutely ludicrous. Some of her friends are gender non conforming/trans/diverse sexuality anyway, all this boys have short hair is so regressive.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 13/06/2020 13:47

I'm so sorry to read this OP. Children are massive casualties of this push to force them into narrow gender stereotypes.

Re secondary school - I would take the risk of being seen as "that parent" and make it very clear to the Head before she starts that the school must stick to their role and under no circumstances are any staff to initiate discussions with her about sex, sexual preferences or identity. They must stick to their role as supporting her learning. Any conversations come from her and not be adult led (just to alleviate any concern that you're trying to silence her).
There is far too much inappropriate adult dominated imposition of ideology in some schools at present. It's well meaning but it's led by adult lobby groups and is adult male centred, not child centred.

Rushhomeroad · 13/06/2020 13:44

The school she will be going to is an academy, which is owned by the same company that owns all the other local schools. They all have the same SMT ethos. The only other option is a religious school, which set alarm bells ringing more when I spoke to them than the other options available.
For anyone thinking it's hard to confuse a girl for a boy - her own doctor accused me of presenting the wrong child at an appointment. I corrected him and said this is my daughter - he didn't look at her for the rest of the appointment, referred to her as 'he' and after we left, DD said he had referred to her as 'it' at one point (which obviously I didn't hear as I would have kicked off) but a complaint to the practice manager got nowhere.

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Durgasarrow · 13/06/2020 13:40

Don't you think a LOT of girls would rather wear something more modest than a traditional girl's bathing suit?

CourtneyLurve · 13/06/2020 13:40

The main thing that jumped out at me was your comment about her not being safe. If you think this for even a second, please, please remove her and then find a solution.

Durgasarrow · 13/06/2020 13:39

I am very confused at the idea of supporting someone in being nonconforming and at the same time pressuring them to conform. If you get pressure from transers, tell them to back way up. You stick to your guns, Mother. I don't see why "gender noncorming girl" isn't perfectly clear. Let her be her original nonconforming self, just as she is--not a stereotyped boy, but an original girl.

twoHopes · 13/06/2020 13:38

Unfortunately, for all of the rhetoric about "gender fluidity", gender non-conforming people are obvious victims in this new world of gender ideology. No one used to care if little girls wanted to wear boys clothes (I was one of them) yet now we have to pathologise it.

As PP have said - puberty and secondary school will be a big moment for her. When I went to secondary school I started dressing a bit more girly as it just made my life easier. I still never wore make up or plucked my eyebrows or got my ears pierced though.

Maybe you could help her find some role models of cool gender non-conforming women to look up to. There are lots of female footballers, rugby players, climbers and extreme sportswomen who are awesome and thoroughly reject all the girly stuff.

NotAGirl · 13/06/2020 13:36

This is so sad, I was gender non conforming as a child and no one took any notice. I thought I'd started to dress in a more feminine way as I reached my teens but been looking back at old photos and my hair is always short and I'm wearing men's shirts in most of them through my 20s and 30s.
If there weren't males trying to go into female changing rooms no one would be worried about non conforming girls

Enterthedragons · 13/06/2020 13:32

Alok also has an excellent book ‘Beyond the gender binary’ which may interest your DD.

backinthebox · 13/06/2020 13:32

Dear god, this terrifies me. There should be no need for a boy or a girl to change their body to conform to what is becoming and increasingly damaging approach to it by a small but vocal section of society.

Enterthedragons · 13/06/2020 13:31

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/alok/id1498855031?i=1000477661706

I found this podcast really interesting on the subject. Sounds like you’re doing an amazing job of letting her know she doesn’t have to conform to any gender role and she can be exactly who she is.

Ickabog · 13/06/2020 13:29

I worry about her next school though as they have many transitioned pupils and seem to use it as an inclusive selling point.

That is setting off all sorts of alarm bells. Please reconsider sending her. If the school is that pushy then she'll end up going down that road. Sad

Flywheel · 13/06/2020 13:29

That's outrageous Dududu. Your poor DD.