DD is gender non conforming

My 12 yr old daughter wears boys clothes only, does not wear a bra and has a short haircut. The general public believes she is a boy and refers to her as such. We have asked if she would like us to correct them when they call her boy. She declined. She refers to herself as a girl.

We just let her be. She is home educated. No problems with bullying or anyone trying to influence to be something she is not.

I don’t know what the future hold for her. I always want her to feel love and support from her family unconditionally. We have been very clear with interested parties that she alone will make decisions about her future choices.

What is gender? Is it our pronouns? Or are they there to describe our sex? Probably this is the crux of the issue for many.

Your daughter is a girl, but she has no gender, because gender is just an unhealthy, self limiting construct.

Teach her to focus more on whether the clothes she chooses are suited for the task at hand. Teach her that what she does in this world (right/wrong, ambitious/idle, improving one's abilities and enjoying activities) matters more than how she looks, to herself, but especially others. Teach her to not care how others see her.

Personally, I would always call her she and her. Because her sex is female.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

I literally have no words.

As a child I was considered a tomboy (as it was called back then) no one mistook me for an actual boy and if they did I never heard about it, even boys knew I wasnt an actual boy. It was very normal to just leave children to be children.

I'm 62 and this was very much true of me as a child and until I was 14. I had short hair until then (but short hair was extremely common for girls in those days - nobody cared how long your hair was), played and followed football like it was my religion and was often referred to as a 'tomboy', which was not considered anything other than a thing that some girls were.

I had long hair from 14-22, then had it cut in a trendy short style and it has remained thus ever since. I've been mostly gnc clothes-wise, but wear what the hell I like, when I like - for example, professionally I used to wear skirt suits from late 30s to late 40s when most other women wore trouser suits.

It's entirely bizarre and infuriating how adults have contrived to force children and young people into making a choice about 'gender roles' that are utterly *unnecessary - and have led to the appalling situation described by the OP and even worse, where children are set on a lifetime of life-changing drugs and medication.

It's shameful.

Were the programs on after the watershed? How did she come to be watching them?

‘Trans kids’ are all over CBBC. Most often natal girls but natal boys too.

This aired pretty much around the time that the spike in girls referred to GIDS (The NHS paediatric gender identity service) began (2014).

I saw programme about trans children and all I could think of when they were describing their feelings was that it was all perfectly normal.

Why weren’t their parents telling them it was part of growing up and quite normal to not like having period or boobs sprouting and if a boy wanted to play with dolls and dress up or girls playing with train sets etc it didn’t make them trans, it made them normal.

I just wondered if the parents didn’t want a normal child they wanted their child to be different

Thank Christ my parents were sane. My sister would have definitely been ripe for these loons. Absolute tomboy, used a boys name where she could, short hair, always ‘boys’ clothes and toys... I suspect she could have been persuaded. Thank god she discovered Martina as a child (she is tennis mad) and had a role model.

Also my parents were cool with it - bought her the blue, let her get cropped hair (when she was little), bought her action man... plus mum always had the attitude that women were just ‘better’ (stronger, more resilient, more resourceful) than men.

@lordfrontpaw

I know. It terrifies me.

A children’s programme about children changing sex... god help us.

She saw a few children's programs about children changing sex when she was about 7

7 is very young to be watching such programmes on a very complex issue. Were the programs on after the watershed? How did she come to be watching them? It seems like until then she was figuring life out as a happy tomboy.

I was a tomboy as a child, played only with boys' toys, grabbed around in the dirt, never ever owned any dolls and had no interest in anything 'girly'. I lived in tracksuit bottoms, trainers and t shirts.

I grew out of this and began developing an interest in makeup, clothes, all the things you would stereotype as 'girly' when I was about 12 or 13.

Your daughter is still very very very young. She hasn't even began maturing into a woman yet.

I agree with PP, I would not 'encourage' her toward anything in particular and see what she does organically. I think starting her down a particular road or labelling her at this time would not help in any way. With regards to school, I think take it on a case by case basis. Tackle each issue as they crop up to find a comfortable solution, such as the swimwear, but don't use buzzwords or attach it to any kind of specific identity.

Rushhomeroad one of our local secondaries is signed up to Stonewall with all the bells and whistles. Suddenly, lots of 'trans kids' and children from a local primary who are 'trans' are being advised to go there as they'll be 'so supportive'.

Nightmare, and also incredibly difficult to have any say over as a parent. The problem with truthisarevlutionaryact's suggestion - excellent as it is - is that there's a strong chance that that will be construed by the school as you trying to censor her trans-ness.

I think the best approach is continue with exactly what you've been doing and really bolster your dd's self-esteem and confidence to be who she is.

Pretty much the only advantage of these Stonewall schools is that they're usually pretty sensitive to make uniform as non-gendered as possible eg girls wear short and jogging bottoms for pe not some silly skirt.

This is bizarre. What world are we living in now?

I had to wear my brothers clothes growing up as we were dirt poor. My hair was also short as my mum couldn't manage my afro kinks. I also played with "boys" toys and loved climbing trees. It was fully acceptable in the 90's and I embraced my freedom to do as my brothers did.

I was (and in many ways still am) a tomboy - a word I use to describe myself and have no issue with.
As a young child I would pretend to be a boy and give myself a boy’s name. My parents never stopped it but used my given name as that’s the name they chose. Can’t recall if it bothered me but it’s not left an lasting trauma.

My first school I wore the boys’ uniform and the only situation I can recall when that was an issue was, at the end of term, a teacher found a skirt with my name in it and made me change. My anger was directed at the teacher for making me do something my parents didn’t.
I then went onto a single sex school with tunics and skirts. It wasn’t an issue as that’s what you do. At home, however, back to trousers and shorts.
As a teenager I had short hair (used to get it cut at a barber’s without problems), wear unfeminine clothes and brogues. I was misgendered at times and accepted that I was the anomaly, the non-conformist and these were innocent mistakes.

As an adult I’m happily married with 3 children and lead a stereotypical ’female’ role. Through choice. And discussion with my husband.

I’m a female who’s not feminine. I hated my boobs at first because they were big not because it made me female!

I do wonder if my parents or I would have been under pressure to pigeonhole me as transgender if I was growing up in the current climate. I think that might have fucked me up far more than learning that I could simply be myself.

I think the description you gave about her being gender nonconforming since the age of 3 might not be in your mind a label but it shows you are thinking in terms of girls only play with/dress like this and boys play with/dress like that.

Ds is 18 and has always looked like a girl. He still gets referred to as a girl even though he is dressed in work trousers and steel toe capped boots.

I can understand the swimming situation as when Ds was younger he used to do football and their were a few parents who muttered about him taking up a boys space on the team. (Even his coach thought he was a girl)

He was once asked in the park by a couple of boys if he was a boy or a girl?
When he said he was a boy they referred to his hair and said their mothers had said only girls had long hair.

He replied that their mothers should get out more. He was 5years old at the time.

I think your dd needs her confidence building than any talk of her changing sex
or not conforming to gender stereotypes.

Not going to clubs because she doesn’t know anyone is a self confidence issue not a gender issue.

She saw a few children's programs about children changing sex when she was about 7 and asked if she could become a boy

I think the simple answer is no. People can’t change sex.
People can call themselves what they want and act out a role but they are still Male or female. That will never change.

I'm pretty sure that if I was the same child now, I would have been transed at around age 6. Which is beyond ridiculous.
Gods sake I hated dolls, i prayed for a chopper bike, i loved my skateboard I was only ever in jeans and boots and I climbed trees like they were my second home yet I like being a woman. Admittedly at a point around puberty I did really question if I was male, but I now believe that's normal in lots of girls.
What a heartbreak if it had been now and I questioned my sex to the wrong person?

There are some great legged styles on the Speedo site- all marketed as for girls.

It’s not you that’s labelling her, don’t worry. We’re just worried about the labels that others may want to push upon her in future.

Your daughter is a girl who likes having short hair and practical clothes with good coverage and useable pockets! Seems pretty sensible to me.

Don't you think a LOT of girls would rather wear something more modest than a traditional girl's bathing suit?"

I'm not clear on your point?

I assume the poster meant girls might prefer a suit which is legged rather than the traditional vulva emphasising style.

Like this. Speedo make it with blue stripes and pink stripes. If anyone knows what a "girls ' swim suit" looks like it must be Speedo. Get her that and tell the school to argue with the world's leading swimwear manufacturer.

www.speedo.com/uk/en/junior-boomstar-legsuit/812396B344.html

Do schools now have special Stonewall inclusivity quoters to fill?

School has a Stonewall Bronze Award and the counsellor is BACP registered:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3339137-BACP-Gender-Sexual-and-Relationship-Diversity-by-Dr-Meg-John-Barker

They did offer to send some leaflets from Mermaids in the post but after my DH gave the deputy head a right telling off on the phone (including asking if anyone had actually assessed DsD for ‘Gillick Competency’ or if the school was simply using it as a buzzword 😂) said Mermaids materials failed to materialise!

Of course, OPs daughter might well be GNC and straight (she’s only 9, no need to pigeonhole her) but all this stuff has been deliberately mishmashed together by Stonewall and targeted at children so it’s best to get properly informed before it gets to the doorstep. Forewarned is forearmed and all that.

This sounds like me. Even down to the hair cut and clothes and what I played with.

I don’t understand why you would even try and label your dd.
All she needed to know was it doesn’t matter what you look like or what you are interested in. She is female and that will never change.

As an adult I am still not interested in hair and make up, I don’t own a handbag. I only own one dress and I am more interested in nail guns than nail varnish

I am certainly a woman but the trans community would say I wasn’t

Just because you don’t conform to the list of what someone thinks is feminine or masculine doesn’t mean anything.

she’s been admitting that school wanting to change her name and gender marker is driven by staff, not her

This makes me so bloody angry. Force feeding this shite to our kids with no option to disagree. Told EVERYONE has a "gender identity" and must pick one.
Do schools now have special Stonewall inclusivity quoters to fill?

One even said she didn’t think she could actually be a lesbian because she wasn’t attracted to transgirls and ‘transwomen are women

If you ever need proof that this is a men's sex rights movement, there it is.
Tell the young lesbians that if they won't have sex with a penis they must be men.
No use to them sexually but great for pushing an gender and boosting numbers.

I used to be like your daughter OP. It was mega awkward going to toilets as people would point me to the boys toilets. I wore the girls uniform at school and girls swimming costume as I saw it as compulsory - so didn’t really question it.

I always knew I was a girl (though at various points I did wish I wasn’t). I went to all girls secondary. I was bullied a little for being a nerd but not a tomboy. I guess I’m glad I didn’t have all the choices that are available now. I still don’t like lots of ‘feminine’ things but I did grow my hair to look more conventional when I was about 14. I have appreciated being a woman more as I got older, married, had kids. Wishing you and your daughter all the best - it is a hard time.

Up until recently I described this phenomenon as sitting under the LGBT Sorting Hat (in that it seems to start when they begin secondary school!) but I don’t suppose I will get away with that phrasing when speaking to the woke lot now!

Most of my DDs teenage friends who are GNC have also gone with gender-fluid, non-binary and trans identities (although one of her female friends who says she is trans and uses a Male name has also said she's lesbian). There does almost seem to be an element of play in it all with them picking a different identity when it suits. I'd be fine with all the teens playing with gender if only it didnt impinge onto sex-based rights.