DD is gender non conforming

This is all getting off the topic of my point though which was that trans people and their allies are not policing women's spaces. And you've assured me GC feminists aren't either. So that's great.

That's right, you seemed to imagine an argument that no-one was making. As I said, it's helpful if you quote the specific posts you're referring to avoid talking at cross purposes like this, and also that specific poster then has a chance to clarify their meaning. This is hard when you talk as if everyone in the thread has posted the same thing!

I spent most of my middle-childhood being mistaken for a boy (until the dreaded boobs) - can't say that I ever had any issues in toilets or changing rooms back then though, because once I or my mum said I was a girl no-one had any reason to disbelieve me.

Now of course, lots of males are saying they're female, and people are a lot more worried about it.

This is entirely the fault of the people lying about their sex to access opposite sex facilities.

if you're saying GC women aren't policing public women's spaces then trans women can continue to use them which is great.

Single sex spaces and services are for people of a single sex to use. The clue is in the name.

I wouldn't ask you to watch "transactavist" videos (to use your phrasing) and I won't watch anti-trans propaganda.

Pro women’s rights/feminist isn’t automatically anti trans, It’s rather telling that you believe it is though. Bit like the men who say all feminists are man-haters, without even considering that we have sons, husbands, brothers, male partners, male friends etc.

I happily read/watch the other side ALL the time. It’s how I know what I’m objecting to, as opposed to simply say, joining a tribe and nodding along with groupthink.

I’ve even read Julia Serrano. Well, some of it. Not got much tolerance for PoMo wankery these days, now that I’ve shaken off the shackles of my Goldsmiths education.

4 of the videos I linked are women who used to identify as transmen. Why won’t you listen to their words? Or is transactivism like Scientology, and anyone that leaves is automatically designated a ‘suppressive person’?

I was like this, a right tomboy until about 13, chances are she'll grow out of it.
Their heads are filled with so much shit if you don't monitor what they watch and what you tell them yourself.
I just usually say yes, dear that's nice. tell me again when you're 21.
It usually gets a laugh.

It's all so fuckdd up. I had a tomboy phase when I was about 8 or 9 too. People just said oh, you're a tomboy at the moment, do you like climbing trees? Cheesy gender clichés maybe, but nobody ever said I was somehow in the wrong body or actually a boy or any of that shit. I found adolescence really hard, I am so horrified at the thought that of I was 14 now, I'd probably have been told I should go to GIDS. By the time I was 16 I was all about dresses and dancing and make-up....

This is all getting off the topic of my point though which was that trans people and their allies are not policing women's spaces. And you've assured me GC feminists aren't either. So that's great. Hopefully we can all unite to ensure gender non-conforming people like OP's daughter are allowed to use women's spaces unchallenged.

It's like the menz don't read anything or bother to look at vids.

Hang on, am I a man now? Even though I have a vagina? I thought you lot were all about biology. How confusing.

This thread is about children changing for swimming.

It also mentions toilets on several occasions but regardless, I was using "public toilets" as a stand in for "public women's spaces" which I'm sure you knew. So again, if you're saying GC women aren't policing public women's spaces then trans women can continue to use them which is great.

Why don’t you actually watch some of the videos I just posted?

No thank you. I have seen enough Magdalen Burns content to know that my views will never align with anyone who shares her content. I wouldn't ask you to watch "transactavist" videos (to use your phrasing) and I won't watch anti-trans propaganda.

I have seen several of the videos from detransitioned women before. I'm desperately sorry that they've had that experience. Thankfully the majority of trans people don't regret their transition.

It's like the menz don't read anything or bother to look at vids.

(I liked that MB one.)

According to this thread they are.

This thread is about children changing for swimming.

Being transgender has nothing to do with sexuality. That statement completely erases the experiences of hundreds of thousands of trans men.

Why don’t you actually watch some of the videos I just posted?

Or you could try this one, Sheila Jeffreys, explaining exactly why trans activism is shit for female people (I deliberately chose that phrasing to include transmen)

Transactivism is a men’s sexual rights movement

Being transgender has nothing to do with sexuality. That statement completely erases the experiences of hundreds of thousands of trans men.

No one is policing public toilets

According to this thread they are. But if they're not, fantastic. Trans women and trans men can continue to use the space they feel is most appropriate as they have been doing for decades.

The parents in that changing room are idiots and possibly also unconsciously homophobic.

It is also possible that they want their daughters to perform femininity and so don't want OP's daughter giving them "weird" ideas.

This Magdalen Berns video sums up perfectly why non-binary people contribute nothing to dismantling oppressive sex stereotypes:

But my question is if trans people and allies aren't policing bathrooms and you say that gender critical feminists aren't policing bathrooms either, who is? If neither group wants it to happen, who is our common enemy here, for want of a better phrase?

No one is policing public toilets. The whole thing is a transactivist talking point. See Helen Belcher on Women’s Hour this very day.

Feminists are fighting the Male/Female axis of oppression, so I don’t think there is a ‘common enemy’.

(The above women are Julia Long and Ann Ruzylo, Linda Bellos and Liane Timmerman)

The women in this post are PeachYogurt, Magdalen Berns and Sheila Jeffreys.

Transactivism is a men’s sexual rights movement, please don’t encourage women to shore it up with internalised lesbophobia.
If you won’t listen to us, how about listening to some detransitioned women?

I don't really understand your point. Is it that butch lesbian aren't trans? Because I know that, and so do all the trans people and allies I know. I also know that being a butch lesbian doesn't make someone a "t*rf" (starring as it's against the MN rules and I'm only using it in response to your usage) - I know lots of trans inclusive butch lesbians.

But my question is if trans people and allies aren't policing bathrooms and you say that gender critical feminists aren't policing bathrooms either, who is? If neither group wants it to happen, who is our common enemy here, for want of a better phrase?

Maybe you should spend some time in women’s liberation movement, listening to butch women about how trans propaganda harms them, then?

These are some of the women your friends dismiss as ‘terfs’ and threaten violence against:

Gender is a set of oppressive sex stereotypes. There is nothing ‘innate’ about it.

*It’s not GC feminists that see a butch woman or a girl with short hair and assume she’s a man/boy.

That’s twisted TRA logic.*

This is baffling to me because it's so far from accurate in my experience of the trans and non binary community who are, in my experience, the most accepting of varying gender presentations. Because they believe that gender is about how you feel on the inside, not about your outward appearance. So they would readily accept OP's daughter as a woman who prefers to dress in a masculine or androgynous way. Equally they would accept a trans man who preferred to dress in a feminine way but still considers himself to be a man.

There seems to be a disconnect. If trans people and their allies aren't challenging people in bathrooms (because they believe all people should use the bathroom which aligns with their identified gender regardless of presentation) and you say that GC feminists aren't challenging people in bathrooms (because they don't believe in identifying someone's gender by the way they present but by their biology which you can't see from outward appearances) then who is? Because it sounds to me like we're universally agreed that it's wrong.

I think of all the misconceptions about trans people prevelent on this forum the one I find the most frustrating is this idea that trans people assume someone must be trans simply because they're gender non conforming. When in fact the trans and NB community is full of people who are gender non conforming and for whom presentation has very little or nothing to do with their gender, which they believe to be innate. If you're a biological woman who dresses in a masculine way and has traditionally masculine hobbies but still happily and contentedly identifies as a woman then nobody in the trans community would say you were trans. Because you're not. The two are mutually exclusive.

Surely it must be GC feminists and those who agree with them, because they are assuming she is male-bodied and they don't want non-binary people or trans women in their spaces so they're policing them?

Um... Magdelen Berns, Ann Ruzylo, Julia Long, the women of Get the L Out ... all of them dead keen on reinforcing gender stereotypes, aren’t they? 🤦‍♀️

Gender Critical means critical of the entire concept of ‘gender’ (as in, the spoken and unspoken rules societies set for how men and women should look and behave).
Huge numbers of GC feminists are GNC themselves.

It’s not GC feminists that see a butch woman or a girl with short hair and assume she’s a man/boy.

That’s twisted TRA logic.

We need to stop calling it ‘gender non conforming’ and simply call it “doesn’t follow fashion” I agree with poster earlier who discussed the rigid stereotypes that children are currently exposed to and this definitely carries across to clothing, and children’s clothing is particularly bad.

But 200 years ago men wore wigs and tights and before that boys were traditionally dressed in pink, and men had long hair, go back to the vikings and men and women decorated their faces, etc etc.

Anyway my point is that it isn’t “gender” your girl it is simply “fashion” she is rejecting.

peach it would help if you could copy the bits from posts that you're referring to.

So who do you all think it is that's harassing this little girl?
People that think if you conform to masculine stereotypes you must be male regardless of your biology.

I think the only reason people are bringing the notion of 'transitioning' onto a thread about children who don't conform to sex stereotypes is because as of recently, not conforming to sex stereotypes is now supposedly a sign your child is transgender and as a parent you might find it hard to argue that they aren't. From the GC perspective I would prefer if we did away with sex stereotypes.

I don't think there is any law that 'you can't be sure people won't break' so it's a bit weird that suddenly I'm meant to come up with an unbreakable law rather than just say 'biological males shouldn't come into female single-sex spaces' (or jobs, or sport etc)

I don't understand how this thread has turned into yet another thread complaining about trans people. No trans person or trans ally would EVER challenge someone for the facilities they're using. That's literally the opposite of what they want. So who do you all think it is that's harassing this little girl? Surely it must be GC feminists and those who agree with them, because they are assuming she is male-bodied and they don't want non-binary people or trans women in their spaces so they're policing them? (Not that I'm saying your daughter is non-binary or trans, OP - sounds like she's perfectly happy being a gender non-conforming woman which is, of course, a completely separate thing to being trans). And yet it's GC feminists who are (and rightly so!) the most vocally supportive of a woman's right to present any which way she chooses and still be a woman.

So what's the solution from a GC perspective? And I'm asking that genuinely. Because even if you manage to somehow make trans women using women's spaces illegal, you can't be sure people won't break that law. So will you continue to challenge people you think don't "pass" as a woman, even if you're running the risk that they might well be biologically female and even though one of the core tenets of your beliefs (which I agree with entirely) is that women shouldn't have to present as femme to have access to women's spaces? I'm genuinely curious.

You're welcome. I'm really passionate about all young women having access to role models who aren't vacuous YouTube stars or Instagram influencers (and I'm sure I do some a disservice by tarring all with the same brush), but especially those girls who don't automatically conform to what society expects from them in terms of looks and behaviour. If your looking for another 'looks like me' outdoor pursuits fan, Ellen McArthur may be a good one.